The following article should not be considered a personal attack upon Christians of the Charismatic persuasion. Rather it should be viewed as a challenge to my brother's and sister's in Christ to make certain that their theology is in line with God's perfect and infallible word. Whenever belief contradicts Scripture, it is our Christian responsibility to yield to Scripture and adapt our beliefs to it's truth.
If you know anything of the Charismatic movement you've probably heard the term "private prayer language" before. The question that you might have is, what the heck is a "private prayer language?" Well, that's a good question, and it makes sense that you would be confused by such phraseology. After all the Bible doesn't use that language, nor does it even describe something that we could refer to as a "private prayer language." So what is the deal with this issue? Where did it come from? And what should be our response as Christians who believe that the Bible is the only infallible source of truth for guiding our lives in Spiritual matters?
To start off, let's discuss what in the world this is even supposed to mean. I know from personal experience, as a former charismatic myself, what people mean when they say "God has given me a private prayer language." From the charismatic viewpoint this means that God has given them the spiritual gift of tongues that is spoken of throughout the New Testament, with a particular emphasis in 1 Corinthians chapters 12;13 and 14. I would like to note here that the word that is translated "tongues(s)" is the Greek word "glossa." The word glossa could equally be translated as "language(s)" and I wish that it would be in more translations so that the mysteriousness of the word "tongues" would perhaps fade a bit. But none the less, either way it is translated, it refers to the same thing, a language. The question that we run into here is this: "what kind of language is referred to by the Greek word glossa?"
Going back yet once again to the Charismatic viewpoint and their understanding of the gift known as tongues, there is a notable amount of disagreement even within the ranks of the Charismatic movement as to how the gift functions today and what it is for.
Some Charismatics believe it only to be in the form of a private prayer language. By this they mean that it is some sort of God given language that only God Himself understands. Often times it is believed that everyone who receives such a "prayer language" it is indeed there own and no one else has one like it. The purpose of this "gift" has varying explanations depending on whom you might ask in the Charismatic movement.
1. Some say that it is a language that is meant to hide your prayers from the devil that God alone can understand so Satan does not try and hinder your prayers.
2. Some refer to Romans 8:26 where it says "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." They then say that the gift of tongues that God has given them is the Spirit of God speaking through them in ways that they do not themselves understand, and this is what happens when they do not best know how to pray.
3. Other's say that it is to "build up your Spirit" or I've even heard "build up your spirit man." Generally referring to some sort of self edification, a spiritual Pick-me-up. I've heard 1 Corinthians 14:4 used as a defense for this view where it says "4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church."
And then there are those that have other variations on those 3 things or mix and match.
There are even some within the Charismatic realm (though certainly not all) who claim that if you do not have the gift of tongues then you are not truly a believer because they see the gift of tongues as synonymous with having God's Spirit and being saved.
Finally, most charismatics that I have talked to believe in a secondary "filling of the Holy Spirit." These charismatics are those who do not believe that you must speak in tongues to be saved, rather they often just believe that those who do not speak in tongues "are lacking the fullness of God's Spirit." Generally this is what they refer to as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
(At Reformation In Progress we deny that there is a secondary experience after salvation where "more" of the power of God's Spirit is received. We will deal with this in a different article.)
Sticking to the issue of "private prayer languages" however, is there actually Biblical support for such a doctrine or practice? I believe the answer is a firm "no."
I think it will be helpful for us to examine what the Bible clearly says about the gift of glossa, otherwise known as "tongues" or "languages." To start, let's look at the first mention of this gift in the Bible.
Acts 2:1-21
"1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" 13But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."
Things to notice about this passage.
1. It was Pentecost, a Jewish festival where every devout Jew that had any way of getting to Jerusalem would be there. (1 Cor. 2:1,5)
2. There were men from "every nation under heaven" and therefore many different languages represented at the festival. When the gift of "tongues was given to the Christians they began to speak in languages that, as Galileans, they would not usually know. (1 Cor. 2:5-11)
3. Although the languages were foreign to those speaking them, they were known languages and understood by the people from foreign countries. (1 Cor. 2:8)
If we were to read on in chapter 2, we would find that Peter goes on to tell the people about gaining salvation in Jesus Christ. The miraculous gift of tongues (languages) validated that God was behind what the apostle Peter had to say, and it was because the people recognized that the power of God was on the Peter and the other followers of Christ that they repented of their sins and believed.
Now mind you, this is the very first example of this miraculous gift recorded in Scripture. It is very clear here what this gift given at Pentecost was for. The followers of Christ were telling the people from every nation "the mighty works of God" in their own languages (1 Cor. 2:11). This as Peter explains is an outpouring of God's Spirit (1 Cor. 2:17-21) and it validated the gospel message that Peter preached, as a result unbelieving Jews placed their trust in Christ.
In fact interestingly enough, every time the gift of glossa (tongues/languages) is used in the book of acts it is used to validate the gospel message in some way. As we have just seen, originally the gift was used to communicate the "mighty works of God" in the languages of those who had come from foreign countries, as a result the gospel message was validated by this sign and people believed the message was of God.
In Acts 10:44-48 we see that the gift on tongues is given to gentiles who receive the Spirit of God when they believe the gospel, validating the gospel message as for both Jews and gentiles alike.
Now as we move to 1 Corinthians we see in chapters 12, 13 and 14 a discussion on spiritual gifts. Let's start at the beginning and move our way forward.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11
"1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."
As Paul start the discussion of Spiritual gifts, I think there are several important things to note.
1. Paul is dealing with the Corinthian church which is not a healthy nor spiritually mature church. The church was seriously divided into factions and were not focused in Christ (1 Cor. 1:10-17). Paul refers to Christians in Corinth as acting like "people of the flesh, as infants in Christ" (1 C0r. 3:1).
2. The very reason that Paul is writing this letter to the church in Corinth is to deal with their spiritual immaturity and sinfulness. the church at Corinth was all to accepting of the practices of the world that were not meant to be mingled with Christ's church. The tone of the letter is disciplinary and corrective all the way through, this does not change when Paul enters the topic of Spiritual gifts. The Corinthians were practicing some things in regard to spiritual gifts, particularly that of glossa (tongues) that were wrong.
Now as we address the above Scripture in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, I believe that the purpose statement or thesis perhaps for the usage of any God given gift is found in verse 7.
"To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."
If more people would just take this simple, straightforward verse into consideration perhaps this would help settle the matter of whether "private prayer languages" were supported by Scripture or not. I ask you this, can speaking in a supposed language that no human being on earth can make any sense of possibly be "for the common good?" No indeed it cannot.
In the same chapter, just preceding verses 1-11 we see that Paul continues this "purpose statement" and gives some depth to the idea of Spiritual gifts being for the common good of the church.
1 Corinthians 12:12-26
"12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together."
In the above passage Paul uses a brilliant God breathed illustration of the church being likened to a human body. Each Christian is compared to a different part of the body, each are given a different but complimentary function. Just as a human body would not function at 100% of it's capacity if it were missing an eye, or foot, or fingers. Likewise each member of the body of Christ is given a spiritual gift and all of the different gifts are needed to operate in harmony for the church to bring the most glory to God. Regardless if one gift by human estimation seems more prominent or important, every gift that God gives is complimentary and depends upon the others. The gifts given by the spirit are meant to edify and encourage the rest of the church. A gift that is not functioning in such a way that it is supporting and harmonizing with other gifts is no gift of God at all because it breaks away from the purpose of spiritual gifts.
Hopefully at this point we are beginning to see the problem with the very idea of a "private prayer language." The problem is that the very nature of such a practice is counter to what Scripture says a Spiritual gift is and how it should function.
In regard to anyone who would hold the extreme position that only those who speak in tongues are believers, the next passage in chapter 12 clearly denies such a view to Be God's truth.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31
"27Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way."
Clearly the Spirit gifts His people in different ways and the language of this passage implies an emphatic "No" after every open ended question. "Do all speak in tongues?" No. Nor were all believers ever meant to have any one gift.
Now as we reach chapter 13 we start to reach the place where people who hold to the charismatic practice and view of "private prayer languages" often draw their theology. Let's take a look at the next passage that follows immediately after the last.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
"1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."
The apostle Paul begins here to engage in some hyperbole. The point that the apostle is making is that regardless of what one is capable of doing, if the motivation is not love, it is of no spiritual benefit to them. To emphasize His point, Paul uses exaggerated language. If he Paul speaks in the tongues/languages of men (an actual gift of the Spirit) or even if He was so incredibly gifted as to speak in the tongues/languages of angels (something we see no example of in Scripture) if he does not do these in love for the church, it is nothing, worhtless.
Likewise if Paul has prophetic powers (which he does as this very letter is recognized as "theopneustos" or "God breathed" Scripture) or if Paul knew everything that there was to know (Paul of course is not omniscient) or if he had a faith that could literally uproot mountains (which of course is an exaggeration) regardless if the motivation behind such things is not love of others then it is of no benefit. The purpose of Spiritual gifts is the encouragement and edification of the church for "the common good."
When Paul speak of the tongues of angels, He does not say that this is something that could actually happen, he merely points out that even if He were so gifted if it were not used in a way that would be selfless love, benefiting the church, then it is no good. I remind you here that this is a corrective letter, the Corinthians were full of pride and loved to boast in their own spirituality, this is the attitude that Paul deals with in the first 3 chapters of this letter. It's likely that the Corinthians were boasting in their gifts and not using them in love for the encouragement of the body of Christ. It is, furthermore, likely that the immature Christians were even boasting that God had endowed them with abilities beyond what was a reality.
Regardless of what was going on, Paul reminds them that all gifts are to be used in love and for the common good of the body of Christ. Something that the Corinthians were surely guilty of not doing as those who were acting as "people of the flesh. as infants in Christ" (1 Cor. 3:1).
Let's move on to the next passage 1 Cor. 13:8-13
"8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
I don't want to spend much time upon this issue now, but it is reasonable to at least mention here that there is a good argument for the gift of glossa as a gift among several that is no longer given. It is amongst what are commonly referred to as the sign gifts such as tongues, prophecy, miracles, healing, etc. The argument centers on this passage where it says that "prophecies they will pass away; as for tongues they will cease..." I think that this is a credible argument, however this is not the issue at hand. We are trying to ascertain what the gift of tongues truly is Biblically speaking, and what it is not. Whether it is a gift for today is for another conversation. But the point is made yet once again that love never ends and is the greatest importance of all.
Let's venture on to the next passage, 1 Corinthians 14:1-5.
"1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up."
Now, once again, this is a place where a lot of Charismatics grasp their theology about tongues. They will say to me "You see, it says that they are speaking to God and men cannot understand. Private prayer language, right there!" However, let's put this in context. We see that Paul goes on to say that "the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation." Now this fits the purpose statement of Spiritual gifts, being used for the common good. Paul then counters that thought with what the Corinthians were doing with this gift of glossa, or at least what they were supposedly doing. Paul says that the one who speaks in a tongue "builds up Himself" rather than building up the church. This is counter to the purpose of Spiritual gifts.
This being the case, what the Corinthians were practicing and calling the gift of tongues, was either not the genuine gift, (claiming to speak an unknown, perhaps, angelic language), or it was genuine that they were speaking in real, human languages, but with no one around who knew the language (which is why they were speaking "not to men but to God" because God knows all languages). Regardless, this was really just one more way to boast in themselves as they have been doing with other things like claiming superiority to others based on whom they calimed to follow (1 Cor. 1:11-17). Paul is not commending the Corinthians on their practice of tongues in the way that they are practicing it, in fact He is condemning it because their motivation is selfish, prideful and boasing in themselves. They were in effect, showing off, saying "Look what I can do!" Spiritual gifts are for the upbuilding and encouragement of the Church, they should never be used for ones own self alone.
Let's continue in chapter 14:6-12.
"6Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church."
This needs little commentary, but, does it sound like to you that Paul thinks people should speak in unknown mysterious languages? Will it build up the church? No. Gifts are to be used for "the common good." A private prayer language cannot do that.
1 Corinthians 14:13-19
"13Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue."
Paul thanks God that He speaks in tongues more than any of them. No one is denying that tongues is, or at the very least was a real gift of the Spirit, but Paul used it in the proper method. As a missionary Paul traveled all over the world and God enabled him to speak in languages he would not otherwise know as sign that gave creedence to his message of the gospel of Christ as being from God. But in a setting where Paul was with brothers in Christ, it would be foolish to speak in a tongue that they did not know. If you do not know what a person is saying, you cannot be encouraged in the Lord, and vice-versa.
1 Corinthians 14:20-25
"20Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21 In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." 22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."
This once again indicates the purpose of the genuine gift of glossa (tongues/languages). The gift was meant to be a sign for unbelievers, just like in Acts 2. God used Galileans who spoke one language to speak to people who were foreign to them in their languages, some believed some didn't. But the purpose of the gift was clear there in Acts 2 and now it is reemphasized here. The gift is not for personal upbuilding, rather it is evangelistic in nature, a sign for unbelievers.
This passage also speaks against the usage of tongues in a worship gathering where all are speaking at once and no one understands. Paul says that people will think the Corinthians "are out of your minds." But prophecy, speaking intelligible words about Christ and His gospel, this causes people to worship God and recognize His presence in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:26-32
"26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets."
Her Paul discusses having order and reverence in worship Once again it is stressed that whatever is done, should be done for the building up of others, for the common good. In regard to tongues there are several things made clear.
1. There should only be 1 or 2 or 3 people at most speaking in tongues in the service.
2. Each should take a turn, it should not be done all at the same time.
3. There should be an interpreter, if there is not they should keep it to themselves and the Lord.
4. The very fact that an interpreter is mentioned points to the fact that tongues should be an intelligible language that someone on earth should know.
This certainly chastizes the practice of many charismatic churches when the multitude speaks in "tongues" all at once. There is nothing but confusion in such a practice and as the Scripture says "God is not a God of confusion but of peace."
Now to deal with that "stray" verse in Romans 8:26-27 that is often used as a justification for tongues as a "private prayer language."
The Scripture says:
"26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Let's consider what the Scripture actually teaches here.
1. The Spirit of God helps us in our weakness.
2. We don't always know how we should pray, or what best to pray for.
3. Because God knows us better thatn we know ourselves and all the details of our lives, He actually intercedes on our behalf "with groanings to deep for words."
4. The Spirit intercedes for us as Christians according to the will of God.
Here is the question. Is the gift of tongues referred to? No. Does it say that the Spirit interceding for His people makes sounds through those people? No. It is a leap and an illogical assumption to tie the gift of tongues to this passage. Indeed it comes from the presupposition that a "private prayer language" exists and then looks through the Bible to try and find Scripture that supports the presupposition. This is a fallacy of Bible interpretation. Context is everything and the gift of tongues is not mentioned.
We have now systematically looked at the issue of tongues. Let's summarize out findings.
1. The gift of tongues (as is true with all gifts of the Spirit) is meant for the building up of others, for the common good of God's church.
2. The gift of tongues is a sign that validates the gospel message.
3. It is evangelistic in nature.
4. It is actual known, human languages.
5. It should only be used when there is someone to interpret it.
6. Not all believers are meant to speak in tongues.
It is my conviction based off of this kind of study that the gift of tongues was meant as a way of communicating the gospel of Christ and validating the gospel message as from God and proving that the gospel was for all people including the gentiles.
If tongues were for today, it would not be as a "private prayer language." There is no Scriptural support for such a practice. It would be for the communicating of the gospel message in a foreign language one did not typically speak in.
Upcoming Posts:
You Can't Tell Me My Experience Was Wrong
Is the Gift of Glossa for Today?
Serving Christ,
Jacob Allee
Friday, August 3, 2007
Let's Start Preaching Again!
Great exhortation for pastors to preach the word faithfully.
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2356/Jim_Elliff
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2356/Jim_Elliff
Monday, July 30, 2007
Check out the New Reformation In Progress logo:
Above you'll see our new logo, designed by the very talented Jeremy Pelton. Thanks Jeremy!
What does everyone think?
-Jacob
What does everyone think?
-Jacob
Saturday, July 28, 2007
I've always heard horror stories about asian prisons, but I had no idea.....
Paste this into your browser:
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/1285143104
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/id/1285143104
Monday, July 23, 2007
Defending the Deity of Christ
I'm involved in an e-mail discussion with an individual who I won't name since I don't have his permission, regarding whether or not Jesus is YHWH the God of the Bible or merely the Son of YHWH and human man designated as the Messiah, but not God. The individual gave me a link to an article that was Written by Dan Mages called "Trinity and Christology in Light of Modern Scholarship." The individual whom I am interacting with via e-mail said that this represents His view. I read the article and I will give you a link to do the same. I then wrote the following to the unnamed individual as my response to the assertion that the Bible teaches Jesus to be a human son of YHWH that is Israel's savior, but not God in flesh. If you have the time, read both Mages article and my response carefully and study the Scripture yourself to see what indeed the Bible teaches.
Here is the link to Mages article:
http://divinetruth.homestead.com/Jesus_relation_to_YHWH.pdf
And here is my response:
Dear Friend,
I apologize that my letter to you was put off for so long. It has been quite a week getting moved into a new home and starting a new job with the anticipation of attending school once again this next month. But at last I have internet set up again and I have found time to take a seat in front of my laptop to write a response to you.
I took the time to read the article that you pointed me to by your friend Dan Mages. While I found the article interesting, I also found it to be seriously flawed and guilty of committing logical fallacies. We will talk more about that later.
In our brief exchange previously we discussed a few issues that you wished for us to take up. One was the issue of whether or not Jesus is "most certainly Yahweh." I of course contend that He is and you contend that He is merely the Son of Yahweh but is not indeed God Himself. So let’s go ahead and start our exchange on that point. The following reasons are why I believe that Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the God of the Bible.
1. The Scripture Clearly Refers to Jesus as God.
John 1: 1-3;14
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Interestingly enough there is a clear distinction made here. The Word was with God, which tells us of more than one person, but also the Word was God. Note that the Scripture does not say that the Word "was a God" it says that the Word "was God." So the word is both distinct in some way from God in order to be "with God" and yet the Word is also that same God.
Verse 14 clarifies any confusion one might have about who "the Word" is. He is Jesus. God become man taking on Human flesh. Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God from the beginning.
John 20:27-29
"27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Note that Thomas not only calls Jesus "Lord" but also "God."
Colossians 1:15,19
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
And
"19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,"
Hebrews 1:3,8
"3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"
and the father speaking of the Son says,
"8But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. '
The Father himself refers to Jesus as "God"!
2. Jesus is Called the Creator, A Title that Alone Belongs to Yahweh.
John 1:1-3
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Colossians 1:15-17
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
Hebrews 1:10-12, the Father says to the Son,
"10And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;11they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
All of this and yet clearly we are told in Genesis 1 during the creation account that "In the
beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1) From your position, the God who created Heaven and earth could only be Yahweh whom you say is the Father alone and not the son, but the Scripture clearly attributes the work of creation to the Son. As we have seen the Son is referred to as God, and is now credited with the work of creation which God does in Genesis 1. I think the Scripture has already painted a very clear picture about whether or not Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the God of the Bible. But there is more to see, let us look.
3. The Problem of Worship.
One thing that you and I agree on is that Judaism and Christianity are strictly monotheistic.
That is to say they worship only one God. Faithful Jews would recite the following several times a day:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deut. 6:4)
Also when the Lord Jesus rebukes Satan when Satan offers Him everything He sees in exchange for Jesus’ worship of him, the Lord says:
" Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'" (Mt. 4:10)
So clearly in Both the Jewish faith and the Christian faith that’s foundation is in Judaism, there is but one God, and only He is to be worshiped. If this is the case and Jesus is not Yahweh as you contend then why is it that Jesus is worhiped, readily receives worship, and is commanded to be worshiped in Scripture?
Matthew 2:1-2,11
"1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, 2saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."
And,
"11And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh."
Matthew 14:33
"33And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Matthew 28:8-9, 17
"8So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and
took hold of his feet and worshiped him."
"17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted."
Luke 24:52
"52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"
Hebrews 1:6
‘6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."
Revelation 14:6-7
"6Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to
those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Remember who we were told the Creator was?)
Revelation 5:13-14, Jesus receives worship along with the Father.
"13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" 14And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."
So one of a few things has just happened here. 1. A bunch of Jews blasphemed God and gave worship to another. 2. The Bible is fallible and inconsistent. 3. God changed His mind about worshipping only Him. 4. Jesus was a sinner who sought to take worship away from God.
OR
Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh and there is no problem with what has taken place in these passages.
It’s noteworthy that Angel’s rebuke people for trying to worship them: Rev. 19:10, 22:8-9.
Peter rebukes people for trying to worship him: Acts 10:25-26.
Paul and Barnabas stop people from worshiping them: Acts 14:11-15.
King Herod dies because he receives worship that is due to God alone: Acts 12:22-23.
And yet Jesus, whom you say is not God but only the God’s son, receives worship and welcomes it, what a conundrum unless Jesus actually is Yahweh as much as the Father is.
4. The Problem of Preexistence.
Some of the verses we are going to look at, I have already mentioned here, but there is another side to them that I believe is worth mentioning. The other side is the fact that they teach Jesus existed before He came to earth.
Philippians 2:5-8
"5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
John 1:1
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 8:57-59
"57So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."
Not only does Jesus clearly say that He existed before Abraham, but also He clearly asserts Himself to be the Great I AM of the Bible. YHWH.
The issue of Jesus being said to preexist before becoming a man is another real problem for the position that denies His deity. Those who deny Jesus as Yahweh must decide whether Jesus is another God like the Mormons claim, perhaps an angel like the Jehovah’s Witness claim, or that He is just a man who happened to preexist. Although no man has ever been called God and the Creator of all things beside Jesus.
5. Jesus demonstrates God’s Attributes:
Jesus shows His omniscience:
Jesus knows the thoughts of man: Mt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 5:22; 11:17.
Jesus shows His omnipotence:
By Walking on Water: Mt. 14:22-33
By Raising the Dead: Lk. 7:11-17; Jn. 5:21; 11:43-44
Cursing the fig tree: Mt. 21:18-19
Calming storms: Lk. 8:22-25
And need I remind yet once again that Jesus is attributed the work of Creation?
6. The Old Testament Alludes to the Trinity:
In Genesis 1 we see that the Spirit of God hovers over the face of the water’s (Gen. 1:2) showing a distinction between God’s Spirit and the Father. Also we se that is says:
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...." (Gen. 1:26a)
God, singular, said "Let us", plural. Well who is He speaking to? Angels? Are we made after the likeness of God and angels? Is He speaking to preexistent human beings? Are we made after the likeness of God and man? No that wouldn’t work would it? Perhaps there is more to God than one might think. And that is exactly what the Scripture goes on to reveal as Scripture begins to unfold and more is revealed by God’s Prophet’s and Apostle’s.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deut. 6:4)
Interestingly enough, the monotheistic Shema that is foundational to the Jewish and Christian faith, alludes to the trinity. Lord is the Hebrew word "Adonai" and God is the Hebrew word "Elohim". Elohim is actually a plural word for God, and yet it is used in this monotheistic statement.
7. Closing Thoughts:
I have some serious disagreements with the article your friend wrote, as you can tell. And here are a few more problems I have with his logic and argumentation.
First of all the title of the article throws out serious red flags. "Trinity and Christology in Light of Modern Scholarship." That kind of phraseology always makes me cringe. Whenever someone says, "yeah, you know that thing that faithful Christians have believed for 2,000 years? Well in light of modern scholarship, I’ve found that all of those theologians are wrong. Not to mention the people only a generation or two removed from the time Christ actually walked the earth."
Honestly, the assertion that Mages makes in his opening statements that there is "much confusion" surrounding "the question of how Jesus is related to YHWH, the God of Israel" is ridiculous. In fact the majority of denominations and even the Roman Catholic Church who I otherwise disagree with on much, have clearly defined in their doctrinal statements that Jesus is YHWH, part of the trinity. Mages makes it sound like there is a massive split in Christendom about whether Jesus is God or not. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This has always been a foundational truth of Christianity, taught from New Testament times until now.
It is a big red hearing to act as if nothing was ever said about Jesus being God until the 3rd Century when Athanasius was battling it out with Arius about whether or not Jesus was of the same or similar essence to the Father. That fight came about because Arius, a wolf in sheep clothing, was challenging what had been taught since Christ came to earth. As we have seen the New Testament clearly calls Jesus God, presents Him as Creator, gives Him worship and commands that He be worshiped as God, demonstrates His God attributes, Etc. And such teaching continued from the 1st century until now.
Mages asserts that there would be much confusion and riotous response against the message of Jesus being God. Has he read the New Testament? They try and stone Jesus when He tells them "Before Abraham was, I AM." (Jn. 8:58) The Apostles message was constantly ignored, got them beaten and stoned and all but one of them (John) eventually killed.
Not only were their logical fallacies in the arguments made but also it seemed more as though Mages was arguing against polytheism rather than the doctrine of the trinity. This leads me to wonder if Mages, or perhaps you yourself understand the Trinitarian position. In no way shape or form is the Trinitarian position suggesting that Jesus is a different God than the Father, we believe that the Bible teaches them to be the same God, yet different persons. 1 being shared by three persons.
Therefore Mages whole section entitled "Follow the Pronouns" is quite irrelevant to this discussion. If you were speaking to someone who believed that Jesus was a separate God from the Father, that would be different, but we who hold to the doctrine of the trinity do not in any way shape or form believe that. God may speak of Himself in personal pronouns all day long and that doesn’t contradict the Trinitarian view of God.
The teaching of the Bible is clear, Jesus is YHWH. I pray that you will study further, be convicted by the Spirit of God and repent and believe in the Biblical Jesus.
In Christ,
-Jacob Allee
Here is the link to Mages article:
http://divinetruth.homestead.com/Jesus_relation_to_YHWH.pdf
And here is my response:
Dear Friend,
I apologize that my letter to you was put off for so long. It has been quite a week getting moved into a new home and starting a new job with the anticipation of attending school once again this next month. But at last I have internet set up again and I have found time to take a seat in front of my laptop to write a response to you.
I took the time to read the article that you pointed me to by your friend Dan Mages. While I found the article interesting, I also found it to be seriously flawed and guilty of committing logical fallacies. We will talk more about that later.
In our brief exchange previously we discussed a few issues that you wished for us to take up. One was the issue of whether or not Jesus is "most certainly Yahweh." I of course contend that He is and you contend that He is merely the Son of Yahweh but is not indeed God Himself. So let’s go ahead and start our exchange on that point. The following reasons are why I believe that Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the God of the Bible.
1. The Scripture Clearly Refers to Jesus as God.
John 1: 1-3;14
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
"14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Interestingly enough there is a clear distinction made here. The Word was with God, which tells us of more than one person, but also the Word was God. Note that the Scripture does not say that the Word "was a God" it says that the Word "was God." So the word is both distinct in some way from God in order to be "with God" and yet the Word is also that same God.
Verse 14 clarifies any confusion one might have about who "the Word" is. He is Jesus. God become man taking on Human flesh. Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God from the beginning.
John 20:27-29
"27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Note that Thomas not only calls Jesus "Lord" but also "God."
Colossians 1:15,19
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
And
"19For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,"
Hebrews 1:3,8
"3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"
and the father speaking of the Son says,
"8But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. '
The Father himself refers to Jesus as "God"!
2. Jesus is Called the Creator, A Title that Alone Belongs to Yahweh.
John 1:1-3
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Colossians 1:15-17
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
Hebrews 1:10-12, the Father says to the Son,
"10And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;11they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
All of this and yet clearly we are told in Genesis 1 during the creation account that "In the
beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1) From your position, the God who created Heaven and earth could only be Yahweh whom you say is the Father alone and not the son, but the Scripture clearly attributes the work of creation to the Son. As we have seen the Son is referred to as God, and is now credited with the work of creation which God does in Genesis 1. I think the Scripture has already painted a very clear picture about whether or not Jesus is indeed Yahweh, the God of the Bible. But there is more to see, let us look.
3. The Problem of Worship.
One thing that you and I agree on is that Judaism and Christianity are strictly monotheistic.
That is to say they worship only one God. Faithful Jews would recite the following several times a day:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deut. 6:4)
Also when the Lord Jesus rebukes Satan when Satan offers Him everything He sees in exchange for Jesus’ worship of him, the Lord says:
" Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'" (Mt. 4:10)
So clearly in Both the Jewish faith and the Christian faith that’s foundation is in Judaism, there is but one God, and only He is to be worshiped. If this is the case and Jesus is not Yahweh as you contend then why is it that Jesus is worhiped, readily receives worship, and is commanded to be worshiped in Scripture?
Matthew 2:1-2,11
"1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, 2saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."
And,
"11And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and
myrrh."
Matthew 14:33
"33And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
Matthew 28:8-9, 17
"8So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and
took hold of his feet and worshiped him."
"17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted."
Luke 24:52
"52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,"
Hebrews 1:6
‘6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."
Revelation 14:6-7
"6Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to
those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Remember who we were told the Creator was?)
Revelation 5:13-14, Jesus receives worship along with the Father.
"13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" 14And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."
So one of a few things has just happened here. 1. A bunch of Jews blasphemed God and gave worship to another. 2. The Bible is fallible and inconsistent. 3. God changed His mind about worshipping only Him. 4. Jesus was a sinner who sought to take worship away from God.
OR
Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh and there is no problem with what has taken place in these passages.
It’s noteworthy that Angel’s rebuke people for trying to worship them: Rev. 19:10, 22:8-9.
Peter rebukes people for trying to worship him: Acts 10:25-26.
Paul and Barnabas stop people from worshiping them: Acts 14:11-15.
King Herod dies because he receives worship that is due to God alone: Acts 12:22-23.
And yet Jesus, whom you say is not God but only the God’s son, receives worship and welcomes it, what a conundrum unless Jesus actually is Yahweh as much as the Father is.
4. The Problem of Preexistence.
Some of the verses we are going to look at, I have already mentioned here, but there is another side to them that I believe is worth mentioning. The other side is the fact that they teach Jesus existed before He came to earth.
Philippians 2:5-8
"5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
John 1:1
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 8:57-59
"57So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."
Not only does Jesus clearly say that He existed before Abraham, but also He clearly asserts Himself to be the Great I AM of the Bible. YHWH.
The issue of Jesus being said to preexist before becoming a man is another real problem for the position that denies His deity. Those who deny Jesus as Yahweh must decide whether Jesus is another God like the Mormons claim, perhaps an angel like the Jehovah’s Witness claim, or that He is just a man who happened to preexist. Although no man has ever been called God and the Creator of all things beside Jesus.
5. Jesus demonstrates God’s Attributes:
Jesus shows His omniscience:
Jesus knows the thoughts of man: Mt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 5:22; 11:17.
Jesus shows His omnipotence:
By Walking on Water: Mt. 14:22-33
By Raising the Dead: Lk. 7:11-17; Jn. 5:21; 11:43-44
Cursing the fig tree: Mt. 21:18-19
Calming storms: Lk. 8:22-25
And need I remind yet once again that Jesus is attributed the work of Creation?
6. The Old Testament Alludes to the Trinity:
In Genesis 1 we see that the Spirit of God hovers over the face of the water’s (Gen. 1:2) showing a distinction between God’s Spirit and the Father. Also we se that is says:
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...." (Gen. 1:26a)
God, singular, said "Let us", plural. Well who is He speaking to? Angels? Are we made after the likeness of God and angels? Is He speaking to preexistent human beings? Are we made after the likeness of God and man? No that wouldn’t work would it? Perhaps there is more to God than one might think. And that is exactly what the Scripture goes on to reveal as Scripture begins to unfold and more is revealed by God’s Prophet’s and Apostle’s.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deut. 6:4)
Interestingly enough, the monotheistic Shema that is foundational to the Jewish and Christian faith, alludes to the trinity. Lord is the Hebrew word "Adonai" and God is the Hebrew word "Elohim". Elohim is actually a plural word for God, and yet it is used in this monotheistic statement.
7. Closing Thoughts:
I have some serious disagreements with the article your friend wrote, as you can tell. And here are a few more problems I have with his logic and argumentation.
First of all the title of the article throws out serious red flags. "Trinity and Christology in Light of Modern Scholarship." That kind of phraseology always makes me cringe. Whenever someone says, "yeah, you know that thing that faithful Christians have believed for 2,000 years? Well in light of modern scholarship, I’ve found that all of those theologians are wrong. Not to mention the people only a generation or two removed from the time Christ actually walked the earth."
Honestly, the assertion that Mages makes in his opening statements that there is "much confusion" surrounding "the question of how Jesus is related to YHWH, the God of Israel" is ridiculous. In fact the majority of denominations and even the Roman Catholic Church who I otherwise disagree with on much, have clearly defined in their doctrinal statements that Jesus is YHWH, part of the trinity. Mages makes it sound like there is a massive split in Christendom about whether Jesus is God or not. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This has always been a foundational truth of Christianity, taught from New Testament times until now.
It is a big red hearing to act as if nothing was ever said about Jesus being God until the 3rd Century when Athanasius was battling it out with Arius about whether or not Jesus was of the same or similar essence to the Father. That fight came about because Arius, a wolf in sheep clothing, was challenging what had been taught since Christ came to earth. As we have seen the New Testament clearly calls Jesus God, presents Him as Creator, gives Him worship and commands that He be worshiped as God, demonstrates His God attributes, Etc. And such teaching continued from the 1st century until now.
Mages asserts that there would be much confusion and riotous response against the message of Jesus being God. Has he read the New Testament? They try and stone Jesus when He tells them "Before Abraham was, I AM." (Jn. 8:58) The Apostles message was constantly ignored, got them beaten and stoned and all but one of them (John) eventually killed.
Not only were their logical fallacies in the arguments made but also it seemed more as though Mages was arguing against polytheism rather than the doctrine of the trinity. This leads me to wonder if Mages, or perhaps you yourself understand the Trinitarian position. In no way shape or form is the Trinitarian position suggesting that Jesus is a different God than the Father, we believe that the Bible teaches them to be the same God, yet different persons. 1 being shared by three persons.
Therefore Mages whole section entitled "Follow the Pronouns" is quite irrelevant to this discussion. If you were speaking to someone who believed that Jesus was a separate God from the Father, that would be different, but we who hold to the doctrine of the trinity do not in any way shape or form believe that. God may speak of Himself in personal pronouns all day long and that doesn’t contradict the Trinitarian view of God.
The teaching of the Bible is clear, Jesus is YHWH. I pray that you will study further, be convicted by the Spirit of God and repent and believe in the Biblical Jesus.
In Christ,
-Jacob Allee
Sunday, July 22, 2007
"There are plenty of 'other' Bible churches around here"
I had quite the experience today. As my regular readers know, my family has moved just recently to central Kansas in a town called Hillsboro. As this is quite a drive from where we were living in western Kansas, we are looking for a new church home.
It's our desire that we find a good church that is Elder led and expositional in it's teaching style. Today was the first Sunday since we moved here that we have had the chance to look for a church, we chose a Bible Church to visit in a near by town and decided to check it out.
We went, of course, and the service was alright. All traditional hymns, which is ok although I perfer a mix of modern worship and hymns both, but not a big deal really. The pastor had a decent sermon and all that, and several people we talked to were very welcoming and friendly. By the end of the service I was pretty well decided that I'd be willing to visit again and we'd see if it was a fit for us as time went on.
However, that's when something changed my mind. An older gentlemen in the church came over to me and in no so subtle of a style he proceeded to tell my wife and I that there are "other" Bible churches that we shoould check out. I found this kind of odd that someone would tell us that when we were visiting their church. But as the conversation continued it became obvious that he was telling us that we wern't welcome their and should look elsewhere. To be honest I was speechless. (A first time I assure you)
I was so taken back that someone would be so forward as to tell us that. I'm not even entirely sure why, but I can only assume it is because I have earrings. Nevermind the fact that I was wearing a suit and tie. I was, and am, pretty upset by this. I don't think He represents the church as a whole, but I also don't think that my wife and I will be going back there and I intend on letting the Pastor know why tomorrow when I give him a call.
I share this mainly to vent, but also to ask, what should be the grounds for one believer (Supposedly anyway) telling another believer that they cannot fellowship in the same building with them? I guaruntee you, it's not a guy having earrings. Only unrepentant sin is a disqualification for fellowship and that is after a series of church discipline (1 Cor. 5; Mt. 18:15-17).
People such as this are what you might call "cancer" to what appeared to be an otherwise healthy church. And in my opinion this is a great example of why church discipline is necessary, because people like this gentleman are destructive to the body of Christ.
In Him
-Jacob
It's our desire that we find a good church that is Elder led and expositional in it's teaching style. Today was the first Sunday since we moved here that we have had the chance to look for a church, we chose a Bible Church to visit in a near by town and decided to check it out.
We went, of course, and the service was alright. All traditional hymns, which is ok although I perfer a mix of modern worship and hymns both, but not a big deal really. The pastor had a decent sermon and all that, and several people we talked to were very welcoming and friendly. By the end of the service I was pretty well decided that I'd be willing to visit again and we'd see if it was a fit for us as time went on.
However, that's when something changed my mind. An older gentlemen in the church came over to me and in no so subtle of a style he proceeded to tell my wife and I that there are "other" Bible churches that we shoould check out. I found this kind of odd that someone would tell us that when we were visiting their church. But as the conversation continued it became obvious that he was telling us that we wern't welcome their and should look elsewhere. To be honest I was speechless. (A first time I assure you)
I was so taken back that someone would be so forward as to tell us that. I'm not even entirely sure why, but I can only assume it is because I have earrings. Nevermind the fact that I was wearing a suit and tie. I was, and am, pretty upset by this. I don't think He represents the church as a whole, but I also don't think that my wife and I will be going back there and I intend on letting the Pastor know why tomorrow when I give him a call.
I share this mainly to vent, but also to ask, what should be the grounds for one believer (Supposedly anyway) telling another believer that they cannot fellowship in the same building with them? I guaruntee you, it's not a guy having earrings. Only unrepentant sin is a disqualification for fellowship and that is after a series of church discipline (1 Cor. 5; Mt. 18:15-17).
People such as this are what you might call "cancer" to what appeared to be an otherwise healthy church. And in my opinion this is a great example of why church discipline is necessary, because people like this gentleman are destructive to the body of Christ.
In Him
-Jacob
Monday, July 16, 2007
We Made It.
Well, we made it. My family and I have moved into our new place in Hillsboro KS. I appreciate those of you who have been praying for us. Our house sold this last week (God's perfect timing). I start my new job at Radio Shack on Wednesday and begin school in a little over a month. That said, there are still a lot of new and upcoming things headed my family's way. Your prayers are still appreciated for our future and our financial situation as we will be on a much tighter budget now.
In Him,
-Jacob Allee
In Him,
-Jacob Allee
Saturday, July 7, 2007
What does the word "day" mean in Genesis?
As an apologist, one of my great pleasures is to get to answer questions from my brother's and sister's in Christ as well as unbelievers. One brother had the following question and I thought it was worth posting here with a reply. This is a subject that I feel needs to be given more attention by Christians.
My brother in Christ,
In response to your question:
"Explain to me the word day in Genesis, does it mean day or something else?"
This is a great question! I assume that you specifically have Genesis 1 in mind when you raise this question. If you have some other passage from Genesis in mind, do let me know.
As you are probably aware there are several different views on the subject of the creation account amidst those who are Christians. One view is that we should take Genesis 1 and 2 quite literally. That is to say that God created the earth and all that we know to exist in 6 literal days and rested on the seventh day. He made man out of the dust of the ground and Eve from the rib of Adam, etc.
Another view (that seems to be growing in popularity) is that the creation account in Genesis 1 & 2 is speaking figuratively and/or metaphorically. Under this line of thinking there is a large range of ideas about what Genesis 1 & 2 is really teaching and how we should interpret it. I won’t go into large detail about this as it does not specifically pertain to your question. However it is this second category where the question pertaining to the word "day" comes up. In the non-literal camp of the creation account, the majority of those who call themselves Christians believe that the earth is truly millions of years old as "modern science" boasts it to be. The problem that this creates for them is that if the earth is truly million’s of years old then the Genesis account cannot be taken literally. If God actually created the universe in the course of a week then the earth could only possibly be anywhere from 6,000 to 9,000 years old depending on who you ask. But agreeably it couldn’t be in the millions.
It is because of this that the question regarding the word "day" has come up in Christian circles. Let me tell you here and now where I stand, and then I shall tell you why.
I believe that Scripture very clearly teaches that God made the earth and all it’s inhabitants and the stars in the sky, etc, in 6 literal, 24 hour days. So in short, yes the word "day" in Genesis 1 actually means "day."
While I have great respect for Wayne Grudem and some others who hold to a non-literal view of the creation account, I must strongly disagree and dare I say "refute" their teaching on this subject.
The Hebrew word that is translated "day" here in Genesis 1 is "yom." Now let me tell you that it is indeed true that the word "yom" does not necessarily have to be translated "day." It can also refer to an undetermined amount of time. This is true with many words in Hebrew and Greek, they can have different meanings depending on the context. But indeed context is everything. Let’s take a look at the Scripture.
Genesis 1:3-5
"And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."
Now let me just ask you, what does it sound like to you? I mean take the Hebrew word "yom" which can mean "day" or a undetermined period of time. Put it in context, what make sense to you? You see basically the non-literal camp tries to force the creation account to be an undetermined amount of time. That way they can say that each "day" is really a long period of time. An "age of time" if you will. This then allows each "day" that is referred to in Genesis to possibly be millions of years. This is how some Christians try an compromise with "modern science." They still credit God as the creator but they just claim that He took a very long time in doing so, and therefore they harmonize their view of the Bible with science.
Many people point to the Scripture verse that says "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4. They try and make the point that God can refer to creating something in a day and have it really be a thousand years because it is all the same to Him.
This, however, is a terrible argument. The above verse tells us how a thousand years seems to God, it does not imply that God doesn’t know the difference. God breathed out this Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16-17) in Genesis 1 & 2 just like the rest of the Bible and when He inspired the text He did so in a simple and straightforward way. There is surely a lot that God chose not to describe about the Creation account, it is after all a very short account when you think of the vastness of creation. But what God did say, He said clearly.
The context of Genesis 1 makes it ever so clear that God referred to days as we know them. "There was evening and there was morning, the first day." Would it make sense to insert "There was evening and there was morning, the first million years."? Or the "first undetermined time period?" It’s rather absurd to even talk about it.
In Exodus 20 when God gave the Ten Commandments, look what He says in regard to the Sabbath!
Exodus 20:8-11
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
You see that even when God speaks to His people directly, giving them the 10 commandments, he refers to the creation account in a literal fashion. The very reason why the Jews took the Sabbath laws so seriously as to stone the person in their midst who ignored the law is because they took God for what He said. They did their work in 6 days and rested on the seventh because that is what God Himself did. Had you asked Moses what day meant (The one who probably wrote Genesis) he would have told you... "a day."
Indeed this is how "day" (yom) has always been understood by orthodox Jews, by believing Christians up until just recently. There has never been this question until very recent history. This should lead us to ask, "Why should we have any reason to understand it differently now?" My personal answer is, we don’t. But let’s be honest, the reason the question about the word "day" has come about is because to many Christians feel the need to try and make what the Bible teaches line up with modern Science. This I believe is extremely dangerous.
In fact it is due to this need to harmonize the Bible and science that we now have what is called "theistic evolution" as a theory some "Christians", if you can call them that, now hold to. The idea of course being that God guided/created the process of evolution. This view is completely incompatible with Scripture hands down. However it is this kind of thing that comes up when we start to "fictionalize" the creation account and insist that we cannot interpret it in a literal fashion. The very idea that we should change our interpretation of Scripture based off of what Modern science teaches is foolish. In fact I think it is such human wisdom that we are warned against in 1 Corinthians 1-2.
The brightest minds once thought the earth was the center of the universe, and they thought that the world was flat, all these things that were once modern science were found weighed and wanting eventually. True science always agree’s with the Bible. That is why there will never be found a "missing link" that conclusively proves evolution.
One other thing to keep in mind when discussing the creation account and how old the earth is, etc. God made Adam with an appearance of age. It’s clear that Adam must have been made a full grown man for him to "know" his wife. He certainly did not start out as a zygote, or embryo. In turn then, it makes just as much sense that the earth, plants, animals and everything else would also have an appearance of age. This would mean that when scientist measure the layers of the earth and guesstimate it’s age, they might be right if it weren’t for the fact that God made the earth to have such an appearance to begin with. Not to mention the possibilities of a world wide flood and what that might do to the physical appearance of the earth and it’s layers.
There is certainly a lot more we could discuss on this issue, and I do recommend that you read the differing views that are out there. But you must ask yourself a couple of questions.
1. What does the Scripture seem to clearly and plainly say? God is not trying to be tricky in what He says to us.
2. Does the narrative context of Genesis suggest that we should look at the creation account as metaphorical or as poetic rather that literal?
3. How have followers of the living God always understood this word "day" (yom) and is there any good reason to understand it differently now?
4. Would anyone understand the creation account to mean an undetermined amount of time if it weren’t for "modern Science?"
5. Should our interpretation of Scripture be conditional on human wisdom, especially that human wisdom that has not been proven?
It’s clear to me that the non-literal view of Genesis 1&2 comes from a foolish need to compromise with worldly wisdom. Where does this compromise stop? Should we take Genesis 3 non-literally also? Perhaps sin isn’t as serious as the Bible seems to say. Perhaps Christ has not raised from the dead and Hid crucifixion was metaphorical and symbolic as the "Jesus Seminar" claims. No the Bible is straightforward and means what it says. Though there are certainly places where there is Hebrew poetry like Psalms, and there are times where authors use hyperbole, and exaggerate, and use figurative and comparative language, we must be consistent in our interpretation of Scripture. We must always let the context define our interpretation, and we must always interpret the Bible by the Bible rather than by "modern science."
What does day mean in Genesis? It means day.
In Him,
Jacob Allee
My brother in Christ,
In response to your question:
"Explain to me the word day in Genesis, does it mean day or something else?"
This is a great question! I assume that you specifically have Genesis 1 in mind when you raise this question. If you have some other passage from Genesis in mind, do let me know.
As you are probably aware there are several different views on the subject of the creation account amidst those who are Christians. One view is that we should take Genesis 1 and 2 quite literally. That is to say that God created the earth and all that we know to exist in 6 literal days and rested on the seventh day. He made man out of the dust of the ground and Eve from the rib of Adam, etc.
Another view (that seems to be growing in popularity) is that the creation account in Genesis 1 & 2 is speaking figuratively and/or metaphorically. Under this line of thinking there is a large range of ideas about what Genesis 1 & 2 is really teaching and how we should interpret it. I won’t go into large detail about this as it does not specifically pertain to your question. However it is this second category where the question pertaining to the word "day" comes up. In the non-literal camp of the creation account, the majority of those who call themselves Christians believe that the earth is truly millions of years old as "modern science" boasts it to be. The problem that this creates for them is that if the earth is truly million’s of years old then the Genesis account cannot be taken literally. If God actually created the universe in the course of a week then the earth could only possibly be anywhere from 6,000 to 9,000 years old depending on who you ask. But agreeably it couldn’t be in the millions.
It is because of this that the question regarding the word "day" has come up in Christian circles. Let me tell you here and now where I stand, and then I shall tell you why.
I believe that Scripture very clearly teaches that God made the earth and all it’s inhabitants and the stars in the sky, etc, in 6 literal, 24 hour days. So in short, yes the word "day" in Genesis 1 actually means "day."
While I have great respect for Wayne Grudem and some others who hold to a non-literal view of the creation account, I must strongly disagree and dare I say "refute" their teaching on this subject.
The Hebrew word that is translated "day" here in Genesis 1 is "yom." Now let me tell you that it is indeed true that the word "yom" does not necessarily have to be translated "day." It can also refer to an undetermined amount of time. This is true with many words in Hebrew and Greek, they can have different meanings depending on the context. But indeed context is everything. Let’s take a look at the Scripture.
Genesis 1:3-5
"And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."
Now let me just ask you, what does it sound like to you? I mean take the Hebrew word "yom" which can mean "day" or a undetermined period of time. Put it in context, what make sense to you? You see basically the non-literal camp tries to force the creation account to be an undetermined amount of time. That way they can say that each "day" is really a long period of time. An "age of time" if you will. This then allows each "day" that is referred to in Genesis to possibly be millions of years. This is how some Christians try an compromise with "modern science." They still credit God as the creator but they just claim that He took a very long time in doing so, and therefore they harmonize their view of the Bible with science.
Many people point to the Scripture verse that says "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4. They try and make the point that God can refer to creating something in a day and have it really be a thousand years because it is all the same to Him.
This, however, is a terrible argument. The above verse tells us how a thousand years seems to God, it does not imply that God doesn’t know the difference. God breathed out this Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16-17) in Genesis 1 & 2 just like the rest of the Bible and when He inspired the text He did so in a simple and straightforward way. There is surely a lot that God chose not to describe about the Creation account, it is after all a very short account when you think of the vastness of creation. But what God did say, He said clearly.
The context of Genesis 1 makes it ever so clear that God referred to days as we know them. "There was evening and there was morning, the first day." Would it make sense to insert "There was evening and there was morning, the first million years."? Or the "first undetermined time period?" It’s rather absurd to even talk about it.
In Exodus 20 when God gave the Ten Commandments, look what He says in regard to the Sabbath!
Exodus 20:8-11
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
You see that even when God speaks to His people directly, giving them the 10 commandments, he refers to the creation account in a literal fashion. The very reason why the Jews took the Sabbath laws so seriously as to stone the person in their midst who ignored the law is because they took God for what He said. They did their work in 6 days and rested on the seventh because that is what God Himself did. Had you asked Moses what day meant (The one who probably wrote Genesis) he would have told you... "a day."
Indeed this is how "day" (yom) has always been understood by orthodox Jews, by believing Christians up until just recently. There has never been this question until very recent history. This should lead us to ask, "Why should we have any reason to understand it differently now?" My personal answer is, we don’t. But let’s be honest, the reason the question about the word "day" has come about is because to many Christians feel the need to try and make what the Bible teaches line up with modern Science. This I believe is extremely dangerous.
In fact it is due to this need to harmonize the Bible and science that we now have what is called "theistic evolution" as a theory some "Christians", if you can call them that, now hold to. The idea of course being that God guided/created the process of evolution. This view is completely incompatible with Scripture hands down. However it is this kind of thing that comes up when we start to "fictionalize" the creation account and insist that we cannot interpret it in a literal fashion. The very idea that we should change our interpretation of Scripture based off of what Modern science teaches is foolish. In fact I think it is such human wisdom that we are warned against in 1 Corinthians 1-2.
The brightest minds once thought the earth was the center of the universe, and they thought that the world was flat, all these things that were once modern science were found weighed and wanting eventually. True science always agree’s with the Bible. That is why there will never be found a "missing link" that conclusively proves evolution.
One other thing to keep in mind when discussing the creation account and how old the earth is, etc. God made Adam with an appearance of age. It’s clear that Adam must have been made a full grown man for him to "know" his wife. He certainly did not start out as a zygote, or embryo. In turn then, it makes just as much sense that the earth, plants, animals and everything else would also have an appearance of age. This would mean that when scientist measure the layers of the earth and guesstimate it’s age, they might be right if it weren’t for the fact that God made the earth to have such an appearance to begin with. Not to mention the possibilities of a world wide flood and what that might do to the physical appearance of the earth and it’s layers.
There is certainly a lot more we could discuss on this issue, and I do recommend that you read the differing views that are out there. But you must ask yourself a couple of questions.
1. What does the Scripture seem to clearly and plainly say? God is not trying to be tricky in what He says to us.
2. Does the narrative context of Genesis suggest that we should look at the creation account as metaphorical or as poetic rather that literal?
3. How have followers of the living God always understood this word "day" (yom) and is there any good reason to understand it differently now?
4. Would anyone understand the creation account to mean an undetermined amount of time if it weren’t for "modern Science?"
5. Should our interpretation of Scripture be conditional on human wisdom, especially that human wisdom that has not been proven?
It’s clear to me that the non-literal view of Genesis 1&2 comes from a foolish need to compromise with worldly wisdom. Where does this compromise stop? Should we take Genesis 3 non-literally also? Perhaps sin isn’t as serious as the Bible seems to say. Perhaps Christ has not raised from the dead and Hid crucifixion was metaphorical and symbolic as the "Jesus Seminar" claims. No the Bible is straightforward and means what it says. Though there are certainly places where there is Hebrew poetry like Psalms, and there are times where authors use hyperbole, and exaggerate, and use figurative and comparative language, we must be consistent in our interpretation of Scripture. We must always let the context define our interpretation, and we must always interpret the Bible by the Bible rather than by "modern science."
What does day mean in Genesis? It means day.
In Him,
Jacob Allee
Tuesday, July 3, 2007
10 Ways To Grow a Church Without God
The following article is written by Pastor Ray Baumann. It's a good reminder that you can build a big church using the wisdom of the world, but it'd be better to be a congregation of 40 people rather than 40,000 if it means the difference between pleasing God or not.
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2226/Ray_Baumann
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2226/Ray_Baumann
Monday, July 2, 2007
I've been gone...
Hello,
I was gone all week at youth camp in Salina Kansas. I may be back now, but I wouldn't expect it to seem like it if I were you. I'm moving a week from Saturday and have a lot of loose ends to tie up. After I move it may be a little while until I have Internet set up, so I don't really know when I'll get back to regular blogging.
Please pray for me that our house will sell this week!!!
God bless.
-Jacob
I was gone all week at youth camp in Salina Kansas. I may be back now, but I wouldn't expect it to seem like it if I were you. I'm moving a week from Saturday and have a lot of loose ends to tie up. After I move it may be a little while until I have Internet set up, so I don't really know when I'll get back to regular blogging.
Please pray for me that our house will sell this week!!!
God bless.
-Jacob
Wednesday, June 20, 2007
Christian Rock On-line
Our local Christian radio station here in S.W. Kansas has done a "Rock-Show" on Saturday nights for a couple of years now. They play the latest in Christian Rock (Pillar, Red, Kutless, etc.) as well as some classics's from D.C. Talk, Third Day, Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline and those kind of bands.
They now have an online rock show 24/7 if anyone likes Christian Rock and wants to check it out here it is:
www.therockshowonline.com
-Jacob
They now have an online rock show 24/7 if anyone likes Christian Rock and wants to check it out here it is:
www.therockshowonline.com
-Jacob
Tuesday, June 19, 2007
God is Neat, Let's Eat!
The following is a link to an article written by Ray Baumann about our attitude regarding prayer before meals. He has some very good points that I know I stand guilty of doing. How about you?
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2168/Ray_Baumann
-Jacob
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2168/Ray_Baumann
-Jacob
Monday, June 18, 2007
Updates on www.reformationapologetics.com
Hello. I'm going to be working hard these next several weeks to get the www.reformationapologetics.com web site moving forward. My wife and I will be moving in about one month and it make take a while in that transition before I'll have internet again, so I'm trying to make some good progress before that time. I appreciate your prayers for the move, I have found a job, but I still need to get our house here sold very soon.
I have updated the apologetics site and added a "Christian Presuppositions" page and linked to it a sub page on the "Existence of God" and "The Bible as God's Word." The "Existence of God" page has an article already on that page and is going to be undergoing further construction. The page for "The Bible as God's Word" is still under construction and doesn't yet have an article posted.
If you haven't seen the page on "Leadership" under "Biblical Christianity" that page has been updated recently too. Let me know what you think!
In Him
-Jacob
I have updated the apologetics site and added a "Christian Presuppositions" page and linked to it a sub page on the "Existence of God" and "The Bible as God's Word." The "Existence of God" page has an article already on that page and is going to be undergoing further construction. The page for "The Bible as God's Word" is still under construction and doesn't yet have an article posted.
If you haven't seen the page on "Leadership" under "Biblical Christianity" that page has been updated recently too. Let me know what you think!
In Him
-Jacob
Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Hello all
If you are not normally a reader of my other blog, To Die Is Gain, then I would suggest that you would check it out for the exposition of chapter 5 in 1 Corinthians. Largely it deals with the issue of church discipline and it is a serious and important subject that more Christians should be aware of. To often sin is allowed to run free in our churches just like it would in the world, but Scripture has something to say about that....it's not to be tolerated.
Also, on another note, I've been pretty overwhelmed lately trying to get ready to move. My wife and I are trying to sell our house and it hasn't been looking good. I would appreciate your prayers. It's a very busy and stressful time in our lives right now. So thank you to those who pray for us.
-Jacob
Also, on another note, I've been pretty overwhelmed lately trying to get ready to move. My wife and I are trying to sell our house and it hasn't been looking good. I would appreciate your prayers. It's a very busy and stressful time in our lives right now. So thank you to those who pray for us.
-Jacob
Huckabee Was Right on Creation Question
The following is an article written by Janet Folger in regard to Creationism versus evolution. Worth the read.
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2148/Janet_L_Folger
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2148/Janet_L_Folger
Thursday, June 7, 2007
Biblical Church Leadership
The following is a link to an article written by Steve Cornell on the issue of leadership in the Church. Very worth the read if you are interested in God's opinion about how the local church ought to be governed.
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/church-leadership-an-overview/
-Jacob
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/church-leadership-an-overview/
-Jacob
Tuesday, June 5, 2007
Well...
I said maybe Monday...Sorry. I'm swamped right now, I'll get to my next post whenever I can. Check out the apologetics site though, I've gotten some work done there and I changed the look, you'll have to let me know what you think.
www.reformationapologetics.com
-Jacob
www.reformationapologetics.com
-Jacob
Thursday, May 31, 2007
Maybe Monday...
Sorry I didn't get the chance today to post on the issue of universalism. It gets busy when you are trying to prepare a sermon.... and hang out with the youth guys now that they are out of school for the summer.... and trying to manage the blog..... and work on my book..... and work on the apologetics site. It's not like I have anything to do.
Ha! Sorry, I'll try and get to that issue on Monday. I think I'll incorporate into that post several things that separate Biblical Christianity from the majority of world religions. For instance, the world religions are often very universalistic, that is to say, most people if not everyone goes to Heaven (Sure there are exceptions like Islam). As well as Biblical Christianity is the lone religion that teaches salvation through faith alone and not by works (I can't think of any other religion that doesn't build some sort of a works system in their somehow.) And then the old standby, monotheism. There are few religions that are strictly monotheistic (again, I know Islam is and obviously Judaism.)
Well, it'll be fun, when I get to it.
-Jacob
Ha! Sorry, I'll try and get to that issue on Monday. I think I'll incorporate into that post several things that separate Biblical Christianity from the majority of world religions. For instance, the world religions are often very universalistic, that is to say, most people if not everyone goes to Heaven (Sure there are exceptions like Islam). As well as Biblical Christianity is the lone religion that teaches salvation through faith alone and not by works (I can't think of any other religion that doesn't build some sort of a works system in their somehow.) And then the old standby, monotheism. There are few religions that are strictly monotheistic (again, I know Islam is and obviously Judaism.)
Well, it'll be fun, when I get to it.
-Jacob
Wednesday, May 30, 2007
Jesus Smacks Down Universalism
The following passage is for all who think that everyone, or for that matter, even the majority of people will go to Heaven when they die.
Matthew 7:13-14
13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
More on this subject tomorrow.
-Jacob
Matthew 7:13-14
13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
More on this subject tomorrow.
-Jacob
Tuesday, May 29, 2007
"I feel led.... God Told Me...."
One of those issues that has gotten under my skin for a long time is the issue that I call the "God told me" syndrome. People who suffer from this problem often experience symptoms such as, but not limited to:
When a person says that God told them something, my response is always, "What did God sound like? I mean if you heard from God, tell me what He sounds like, I'm eager to know!" Of course, that's not what they meant. They did not hear the audible voice of God. So then they might say, "Well, I feel God leading me to do this." Then of course I can't help but ask, "Really? How does it feel when God leads you?" About that time they are tired of my questions.
But here is the point, what do people mean when they say "God told me..." or "God is leading me..."? How does God do this to them? They just feel it in their heart? But Jeremiah 17:9 says,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
The problem here is that we are sinners. We have been seriously marred by sin. And even if you are a new creation in Christ, the Scripture tells us that we will struggle to defeat the flesh (our sinful old nature) for the rest of our earthly existence. So can we trust our feelings? Absolutely not. Our feeling are subjective. Think, right now as you are reading this, how many ungodly thoughts and feeling have you had this month, this week, today? If you're honest you will say, "I've had a whole lot." I know I have. Why? Because I'm a jacked up sinner in need of God's grace every moment I draw another breath.
So when I have a decision that needs made, or I need guidance, what do I need to do? I need to pray and go to the word of God. It is a dangerous thing that is being taught that people should merely pray, ask God for answers and sit quietly and listen for his voice. That is not how God tells us He operates. Who knows what you might here? You might hear your own desires saying "Yeah, do this" or perhaps a demon might speak to you and you think it's God! How do you know? What does God sound like?
I'm certainly this is where someone will say to me, "But the book of James tells us that 'if anyone of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him.'" (James 1:5) Well, yes it does. But it says wisdom and not knowledge. Wisdom, biblically speaking, is the application of knowledge. So Scripture is not saying, if you don't know something, ask God to tell you, rather, if you know the truth but don't know how to apply it, ask God for wisdom in how to do so.
How then do we let God lead us? Obviously it is something we want to do. We must let God take control. Take Ephesians 5:17-21 for instance:
"17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ."
Being filled with the Spirit is contrasted with being filled with too much wine. Wine controls in a negative way when a person become drunk, but the Spirit controls in a good way when people immerse themselves in Him. We are to give ourselves to the worship of God, the study of the Scripture, the fellowship of other believers, and other things that we are told bring glory to God. This is how we give control to the Spirit and let Him lead us, by doing what He tells us to do, being obedient to the word of God.
When Jesus talks about the coming of the Holy Spirit he tells His disciples that the Spirit will teach them all things and bring to remembrance the things that Jesus taught. This is how God speaks to us today also. As we worship God, pray to Him for guidance and wisdom, and seek Him in the Scriptures, the Spirit will bring to remembrance the things God has told us, in His word.
When we make decision about buying a home or a car, God might remind us about the parable of the talents and being a good steward with the money He gives us. We pray and think and then make a decision that we believe most honors the Lord with what He has given us. This doesn't make our decision inerrant, but it's a much better approach then just doing what we want and saying "God told me." The same is true for any circumstance. Dating for instance. Should I date this person or not. Well the Bible tells us to be evenly yoked, is she a Christian? Does she hold my conviction about the Bible and things that matter to God? Seek the word of God in Scripture, pray about it and make the decision that you think honors God.
Scripture alone is our authority that equips us for every good work. Trust God's word, not inner voices and urges, you do not know who those voices belong to.
Hebrews 1:1-2
"1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
We have the word of Christ in written form. You need seek nothing else for answers. Ask God for wisdom as you read His truth that is already revealed.
Here is a link on this same issue that I appreciated by Pastor Steve Cornell:
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/do-inner-promptings-reveal-gods-will/
In Him -Jacob
- Weak theology
- Self justification of sin
- Gratification of the flesh
- A rejection of Sola Scriptura and the Sufficiency of Scripture
I myself, a former charismatic, have suffered from this condition. Yes it's true, there was a time when I would often say things like, "God told me..." or "God led me to do this" or "I think God is leading me to..." I would use these catch phrases to justify something I wanted to do. I sometimes genuinely convinced myself that God had really said something to me, but Got frustrated when it did not happen. I've had other experiences where friends would tell me that God told them something. I had a girlfriend in High school break up with me because God told her to. I had a friend that told me God told him that I shouldn't get married to the person who is now my wife of almost 4 years (whom I love and God has blessed our marriage). I couldn't figure out why God would tell my friend that, and not me. Maybe I wasn't listening, or maybe I was right that my friend just wasn't happy with the relationship I had with my fiance' that moved to quick for most people. (I asked Susan to marry me one day less than a month after meeting her.) So I have been guilty of this disease and I have suffered from the symptoms of others as well. But let me ask you this, when can we actually say that God told us something?
I submit to you that the only time we can confidently say "God told me..." is when we can follow it up with something like "...In John chapter 10..." After all, the only way we can know for sure the will of God is through his word. 2 Timothy 3 :17 tells us that Scripture makes the man of God "...competent, equipped for every good work."
Therefore when we come to a difficult decision or we are needing some guidance on any given issue, where should we turn? Do we stop and listen to that inner voice? No. We go to the Scripture that is sufficient to make us competent, and equipped for every good work.When a person says that God told them something, my response is always, "What did God sound like? I mean if you heard from God, tell me what He sounds like, I'm eager to know!" Of course, that's not what they meant. They did not hear the audible voice of God. So then they might say, "Well, I feel God leading me to do this." Then of course I can't help but ask, "Really? How does it feel when God leads you?" About that time they are tired of my questions.
But here is the point, what do people mean when they say "God told me..." or "God is leading me..."? How does God do this to them? They just feel it in their heart? But Jeremiah 17:9 says,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
The problem here is that we are sinners. We have been seriously marred by sin. And even if you are a new creation in Christ, the Scripture tells us that we will struggle to defeat the flesh (our sinful old nature) for the rest of our earthly existence. So can we trust our feelings? Absolutely not. Our feeling are subjective. Think, right now as you are reading this, how many ungodly thoughts and feeling have you had this month, this week, today? If you're honest you will say, "I've had a whole lot." I know I have. Why? Because I'm a jacked up sinner in need of God's grace every moment I draw another breath.
So when I have a decision that needs made, or I need guidance, what do I need to do? I need to pray and go to the word of God. It is a dangerous thing that is being taught that people should merely pray, ask God for answers and sit quietly and listen for his voice. That is not how God tells us He operates. Who knows what you might here? You might hear your own desires saying "Yeah, do this" or perhaps a demon might speak to you and you think it's God! How do you know? What does God sound like?
I'm certainly this is where someone will say to me, "But the book of James tells us that 'if anyone of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him.'" (James 1:5) Well, yes it does. But it says wisdom and not knowledge. Wisdom, biblically speaking, is the application of knowledge. So Scripture is not saying, if you don't know something, ask God to tell you, rather, if you know the truth but don't know how to apply it, ask God for wisdom in how to do so.
How then do we let God lead us? Obviously it is something we want to do. We must let God take control. Take Ephesians 5:17-21 for instance:
"17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ."
Being filled with the Spirit is contrasted with being filled with too much wine. Wine controls in a negative way when a person become drunk, but the Spirit controls in a good way when people immerse themselves in Him. We are to give ourselves to the worship of God, the study of the Scripture, the fellowship of other believers, and other things that we are told bring glory to God. This is how we give control to the Spirit and let Him lead us, by doing what He tells us to do, being obedient to the word of God.
When Jesus talks about the coming of the Holy Spirit he tells His disciples that the Spirit will teach them all things and bring to remembrance the things that Jesus taught. This is how God speaks to us today also. As we worship God, pray to Him for guidance and wisdom, and seek Him in the Scriptures, the Spirit will bring to remembrance the things God has told us, in His word.
When we make decision about buying a home or a car, God might remind us about the parable of the talents and being a good steward with the money He gives us. We pray and think and then make a decision that we believe most honors the Lord with what He has given us. This doesn't make our decision inerrant, but it's a much better approach then just doing what we want and saying "God told me." The same is true for any circumstance. Dating for instance. Should I date this person or not. Well the Bible tells us to be evenly yoked, is she a Christian? Does she hold my conviction about the Bible and things that matter to God? Seek the word of God in Scripture, pray about it and make the decision that you think honors God.
Scripture alone is our authority that equips us for every good work. Trust God's word, not inner voices and urges, you do not know who those voices belong to.
Hebrews 1:1-2
"1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
We have the word of Christ in written form. You need seek nothing else for answers. Ask God for wisdom as you read His truth that is already revealed.
Here is a link on this same issue that I appreciated by Pastor Steve Cornell:
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/do-inner-promptings-reveal-gods-will/
In Him -Jacob
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