Wednesday, March 14, 2007

God's Sovereignty in Salvation: PART 1

The Doctrine of Total Depravity

The doctrine of "Total Depravity" is sometimes called "Total Inability" or "Radical Depravity." No matter what title it is given, the meaning is the same. We will use the title "Total Depravity" as it is the traditional title first used for the doctrine.

Total Depravity may be defined in this way:

"Because of the effect of sin that came upon all of mankind at the fall in Genesis 3, all people have been seriously affected by sin in every part of their being, mind, body and soul. Sin has rendered mankind unable to understand spiritual things and unable to know or love God in our own strength. Because of the effects of the fall, mankind is enslaved to sin and does it’s bidding not under compulsion, but freely chooses to do so because mankind loves it sinful actions. Mankind is incapable of freeing themselves from the effects of sin."

One thing that should be cleared up about this doctrine, and this is often a misconception of what is taught by it, is that total depravity does not teach that mankind is a evil, or sinful as it could possibly be. Even though everyone is born totally depraved we pass opportunities for evil all the time. Even Hitler probably walked on by an opportunity to kick a puppy out in front of a truck one time. Everyone could be more sinful, that isn’t the point. The point is that sin has effected every part of every person, totally.

Where shall we start in showing what Scripture says about this? Well I think it’s always best to start the story from the beginning, Genesis 3.

I trust that anyone with even a passing knowledge of Scripture knows the basic story of the fall. God creates His perfect creation including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve rebel against God and sin by eating the fruit of the tree of which they were commanded not to eat. And because of this rebellion against God, sin enters creation.

This now brings us to Genesis 3:16-19.

16To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

17And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,'cursed is the ground because of you;in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Let’s look at some of sins effects upon creation.

1.We see that sin increased pain in giving birth to children. So sin has changed things in a physical bodily sense.

2. We see that relationships between men and women, husband and wife are affected by sin. Even though God created women to be a helpmate to men, now because of sin the natural tendency is for the woman to control her husband and lead even though that is the husbands duty, and in turn the husband because of sin often rules over his wife unlovingly.

Note the word desire is the same Hebrew word in Genesis 4:7.

"7If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

Clearly "desire" is equated with taking control.

3. We see that due to sin the very earth itself has been effected. Before the fall plant life grew with ease but due to sin now any farmer can testify that it is a struggle to produce healthy crops free of weeds and thorns. It take much work, and now days money, to produce good crops.

4. And then finally we see that due to sin, mankind now eventually dies. The body decays and eventually gives out.

Most importantly however is the loss of relationship with God that mankind suffered when sin took hold of creation.

Genesis 3:22-24.

"22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."
The Garden of Eden was where man and God literally walked together, and enjoyed fellowship that we can now only imagine. And because of sin, mankind was cast out from the garden, and cast out of the direct presence of God.

Literally thousands of years went by between the time of the fall of man and the New Testament times, but was man able to break free from the grip of sin? No. Just look at what Paul writes in Romans 1:18-32.

"18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

Man has done nothing to slow the effects of sin. Man is incapable of doing so, nor does man desire to do so. Mankind does not only murder, slander, gossip, boast, etc.,etc., but we also "give approval to those who practice them."

Think of the ethnic cleansing that continues to go on today. Think of the abortion that thrives in our own country today. And what do you see... people cheering on murder. You may say, "well I do not approve of such things", but many do, and you are not so righteous yourself. Maybe you’ve never murdered anyone, but you’ve lied, you’ve probably stolen, you have certainly disobeyed your parents, you’ve gossiped, you’ve slandered, and much more, you sin every single day as do I! Do not play the self justification game, you’ll lose.

If anyone should think that they don’t fit the categories given in Romans 1then they should look at Romans 3:10-18.

10as it is written:"None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13"Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.""The venom of asps is under their lips." 4"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16in their paths are ruin and misery, 17and the way of peace they have not known." 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

No one who believes the Bible to be the word of God can escape the grasp of this passage. Words and phrases like "none" and "no one" and "all" pretty well nail us all to the truth, that every man, women and child, is totally depraved. Our hearts are naturally bent upon sin. We love sin, it’s what we do best. We are good at it. We don’t want to know God, we serve our own gods that serve our own purposes. We are natural born liars and murderers at heart. "There is no fear of God before their (our) eyes."

1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that "14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

We all enter this world as "natural" people. None of us on our own "accept the things of the Spirit of God." We ride them off as folly, foolishness. Even more we are told that those who are natural and in the flesh are hostile to the things of God.

Romans 8:7-8.

"7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

We are incapable as sinners to submit to God’s law, His word, His truth. We cannot please God as depraved sinners, nor do we want to.

When the serpent said to the woman in the garden of Eden, "surely you will not die" he knew something very well. They did not physically die that day when they rebelled against God, but the died spiritually at that very moment, and now everyone in mankind is born spiritually dead from the womb.

Romans 5:12.

"12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

What does God promise for those who rebel against Him and continue in their sin? "... it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." (Hebrew 9:27) And 2 Peter 3:7 says "But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Look at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10.

"5This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- 6since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed."

God requires holiness in order for us to fellowship with Him. God says in 1 Peter 1:16 "...You shall be holy, for I am holy." But as Scripture has very clearly shown, man is not holy. Man is evil and bent on doing evil, they love their sin and sin rules over them.

So let me leave you today with this one very important question.

If God requires perfect holiness/righteousness as a prerequisite for fellowship with Him. If we must be righteous to enter the kingdom of God on judgement day, what hope do we have?
Some will rightfully say, Jesus. But understand, we have been told that the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit. We have been told that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. We are told that no one seeks for God. Our natural inclination is to forsake God. Our nature allows nothing else but to deny God and His son Jesus Christ. Is that not what Scripture has so clearly said?

So if we are incapable of doing anything pleasing before God, and we naturally reject spiritual things and therefore naturally choose to reject the Son of God who is the only hope of salvation, and God requires perfect righteousness for salvation, what hope does mankind have?

The answer is in God’s word, and we will look at that next time.

18 comments:

Papa J said...

How is a newly born child born depraved?

I can not accept the concept of origianl sin. Indeed, if you read that same account in Genisis 3 you will see that "sin" isn't mentioned. You have automatically equated disobedience to sin and then carried that sin forward onto the heads of all mankind?

No! God is more loving. Christ saves all from the fall through the resurrection of ALL mankind. Then Christ will save all those that ACCEPT him.

So, how does a newborn child CHOOSE to accept christ?

Since God is JUST, not a respector of men, you must answer this question if you insist that sin originated with Adam and is inherited by all mankind.

risen_soul said...

well sir, I think that this post gave plenty of Scripture to support the Bible's teaching on this matter. But let's think it through some more.

Sin isn't mentioned in Genesis 3? Perhaps the word "sin" is not mentioned but it is smackingly obvious that sin is very present in the rebellious actions of Adam and Eve. After all what is sin? Sin is anything that opposes God's commandments.

Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree. Adam and Eve ignored God's command and ate of the tree, thus they transgressed the commandment of God and "sin" entered the world. In Genesis three we see all the things that "sin" affected. Childbearing, growing food, relationship between husband and wife and of course most dreadfully important, Man and God.

How do you separate disobedience and sin? They are one and the same thing.

How do you not recognize that Scipture teaches from Genesis to Revelation that man is born into and enslaved to sin? Psalm 51:5 says "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

And Ephesians 2:1-4

"1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Must we teach children to be selfish? No they naturally don't want to share. Must we teach children to disobey their parents? No they naturally rebel. They show very early in their lives that sin is their master just like all of mankind apart from Christ.

Genesis 8:21 says "...for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth..."

What do yo mean by "No! God is more loving." more loving than what? What have I said that makes God guilty of being unloving. He is God and anything He does is just. He is the standard of Good.

"Christ saves all from the fall through the resurrection of ALL mankind."

Does He? Is everyone saved? Of course not, that is heretical. But then I see that you go on to say "Then Christ will save all those that ACCEPT him."

Again let me show you what SCRIPTURE teaches. Romans 3:10-18.

"10as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Because of sin no one seeks for God nor desires to know Him. So how will anyone "ACCEPT" Him? They can't, and they don't want to.

"So, how does a newborn child CHOOSE to accept christ?" They cannot. In fact they are just as incapable as you and I, under our own strength.

I "must answer this question" if I want to insist that I believe what Scripture clearly teaches? Ok. I will.

I can't choose God, you can't choose God, a newborn can't choose God. God must choose us. And that is what my next post in this series "God's Sovereignty in Salvation: PART 2" will discuss. So stay tuned.

If you want to argue about "Total Depravity" find a biblical basis to do so, because to argue against it by saying (preverbialy speaking) "that doesn't sound fair to me" is not a good argument. "...who are you, O man, to answer back to God?..." (Rom. 9:20).

I have soaked this post with Scripture, tell me why I'm wrong.

Papa J said...

First on disobedience and sin.

Disobedience is a transgression. The father has spoken his will and we have the choice to follow. When you tell a neighborhood child who is eating with you that in order to eat at your table he must wash the dishes, then after dinner he chooses not to wash the dishes has he broken any commandment? Of course not, he has disobeyed a rule. For which there is a consequence, he is no longer welcome at your table. The next time your child wants his friend over, you will not let the friend eat with you unless your child offers some sort of surity (or you weren't serious in the first place.)

Did Adam and Eve cross a moral imperitive? No, they broke a rule that Heavenly Father took very seriously. They suffered the consequences of their decision, which were serious as well. But then God acknowledged the good that came from the situation in Genisis 3:20 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

In kicking Satan out of the garden in the preceeding verses he also vowed to protect his disobedient creations. Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between they seed and her seed; it shall bruise they head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

In other words, God made satan our ENEMY. Satan can "bruise our heel" or lead us to sin, but we can "bruise his head," or in other words, Christ allows us to crush sin. How do you bruise a snakes head? You crush it and thereby immobilize the fangs.

Only after he proclaimed this enmity between us and satan, only after he proclaimed his protection over man, did he turn to Adam and Eve and in essence said, "Don't think you're getting off scott free either."

So, what happens next is a kind of spiritual death. When once they were always in the presence of God they were now out in the world. Where once they had everything they needed provided to them, they were now forced to work for it.

Why do you think Adam made the choice to eat the fruit? Genesis is silent on this count but place yourself in his shoes. We know from scripture that he was not decieved but that he made a CHOICE! (1 Timothy 2:14) Why would he choose to disobey God? Genesis 2:24 provides the answer. He was also commanded to stay with Eve! He had to make a choice to disobey God one way or another and he made the right choice. Indeed God didn't abandon Adam once Adam was cast out of the garden, if God continued to speak with Adam's children (Genesis 4:9-15.) And this evil son took the relationship casually enough that he thought he could hide his sins from the Lord doesn't it follow that man (including Adam) still enjoyed a personal relationship with God up to this point. Wouldn't you be a little intimidated if God came asking you where your brother was? Indeed we should honor Adam and Eve, for once having made a bad decision, they corrected their path and God accepted their repentance. He promised them salvation and the power to overcome satan before they even took one step out of the garden.

Now on to the fallen state of mankind.

If Adam knew from the very beginning that a savior would be provided he also was aware that all mankind would have to face death. The eventual separation of our immortal spirits from our all too fragile bodies. He and all of his children were condemned to enjoy the flesh just long enough to get the hang of it and then be separated from those same wonderful gifts upon death.

Likewise, the casting of Adam out of the garden is a symbol of man's separation from God. A spiritual death. For to be seperated from the presence of god would be the definition of hell. We have two deaths to overcome. The flesh and the spirit. Our spirit will never cease to exhist but we choose whether or not to return to God through Christ.

Resurrection is a free gift to all of Adam's children. Romans 5:14-21 talks about the two kinds of salvation that come through Christ. In verse 16 , talking of offenses, the gift is applied to MANY but not ALL. In verse 18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgement (Death) came upon ALL men (even Christ) to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification OF LIFE. (Resurrection)"

Lastly, about children.

Yes, children do have inherently human traits. But they have also inherited a divine nature. Remember God made Satan our enemy from the beginning, he did NOT say to Adam, "You and your children are my enemy, doomed to fall in with Satan and you'll have to prove yourself before you will be allowed back." By nature Satan is our enemy.

Likewise in your example of the two year old that is selfish how do we hold that child accountable? With instruction. If an adult took something from his neighbor how do we hold him accountable? With punishment. He is old enough that he has received enough instruction to be held accountable.

So at what point does a man begin to be accountable for his actions then?

Peter hints at the answer in 1 Peter 3:18-21

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, EIGHT souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure (or number - 8) whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

He has even further explained that its not as though we "put away the flesh" at eight, when a child should be baptised, but that by that point we should have enough knowledge to be able to have a "good conscience toward God."

A good concience that allows us to CHOOSE Christ. Christ becons, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28. He is an impartial judge. He knows all men's hearts, as well as our actions. And if we accept him through our faith and baptism (Matt 3:13-17) He will forgive us of our sins. If we accept Him and obey his commandments, he will send the comforter. (John 14:15-18) That's His promise. He will come to use AFTER we have shown our faith and come unto Him.


So what happens to those who die before they are accountable? A perfect God can make that judgement.

Thank you for your good work in sharing the word of God. Keep it up!

risen_soul said...

papa j,

I think that you are holding on to some very dangerous doctrinal errors and hermenutic flaws. I wish to respond to you, but I don't have the time today. I will respond tomorrow if possible in full. I appreciate the conversation nonetheless.

In Him -Jacob

risen_soul said...

I apologize that I didn't get to post my response yesterday as I said I would. I never had the chance to get on-line yesterday. But here it is:

Papa j,

I find myself wandering, from what background do you come from. Clear as day for all who read here to see, I come from a Calvinistic view of Scripture making my view point that of the reformers when it comes to that of the fall. Which I believe to be the most Scripturally consistent view to hold concerning the issue of salvation, and our need for it.

But the view you seem to hold, my friend, is that other than the orthodox protestant understanding of the fall, for you seem to take such a light view of it. I’m not trying to pin you to anything but I simply am wondering because your view of the fall is totally “other” than what is espoused by orthodox protestant Christianity.

In your treatment of “disobedience and sin” you state “Disobedience is a transgression” I agree with that. However our view of what a transgression is, is radically different. You continue, and I quote “The father has spoken his will and we have the choice to follow. When you tell a neighborhood child who is eating with you that in order to eat at your table he must wash the dishes, then after dinner he chooses not to wash the dishes has he broken any commandment?”

Well, in a sense, yes he has. Although this analogy is a faulty analogy not really worthy of comparison to Genesis 3 and the fall of man. First of all, I am not God. What ever rule I may make for a neighborhood child, is not anyway binding in the same sense that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. This is not even remotely on the same plane. God is the lawgiver, the rule maker, the one who defines good from evil, He is the standard of truth. Who am I, or you, but mere creatures of the Creator.

Let’s continue with your statement. (I’ll overlap a bit to remind everyone of the context.) “...has he broken a commandment? Of course not, he has disobeyed a rule. For which there is a consequence, he is no longer welcome at your table. The next time your child wants his friend over, you will not let the friend eat with you unless your child offers some sort of surety (or you weren’t serious in the first place.)”

Again you have taken from the divine Scripture and made an analogy of straw. This in no way relates to the biblical account. I am man, as are you. Our rules are not binding, but those that God makes are.

You said “Did Adam and Eve cross a moral imperative?” Yes! They did. The word of God is binding. When God says, “do not do this” and we do, we have sinned against God. You are using a flawed argument, trying to make a case for their being a difference between disobeying God and sinning against God. How does one sin against God? By disregarding His will for us and disobeying Him!

Psalm 119:4-10 says:

“You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! Then I shall not be put to shame, having my eyes fixed on all your commandments. I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules. I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me! How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments.”

There is no more “moral imperative” than obeying the word of the Lord. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree. Genesis 2:16-17 says:

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in he day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Adam and Eve broke a commandment of God, that is the definition of sin. But to this you say “No, they broke a rule that Heavenly Father took very seriously.” Again trying to equate this to your analogy of straw as if Adam and eve transgressing the commandment of God is not any more serious than a neighborhood boy ignoring a rule that I made up. This is not comparative. My rules are nothing, disobeying me does not bring the judgement of God upon us for sin, but disobeying God most certainly does.

You said “They suffered the consequences of their decision, which were serious as well.” As serious as what? Not eating at the dinner table anymore? Furthermore you say “But then God acknowledged the good that came from the situation in Genesis 3:20 ‘And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...’”

Up till now, I thought that maybe you were just a little misguided, but now I’m afraid it’s more serious than that. This is the point that made me have to wonder from what background you are coming from. You assert that “good” came from the fall of man? How could you possibly say and believe that. God was not glad that they did exactly what He told them they were not to do!

In Genesis 3:22-23 (not 3:20) God says “‘Behold the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever’ therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to work the ground from which He was taken.”

God is not saying “Well shoot, Adam did exactly what I told him not to do, but look on the bright side, now he is just like me (or us, referring to the triune God) knowing good and evil.” NO! God was not pleased that Adam now knew good from evil, because the knowledge of evil refers to the death of innocence. God created Adam and Eve perfect, lacking nothing. The knowledge of good and evil was not something God forgot to equip man with, God purposely created man ignorant of evil. God is not commending Adam for his sin. And yes, it was sin.

God put man out of the garden because they became aware of good and evil, God punished them for the thing you say God acknowledged as a good thing.

You said “In Kicking Satan out of the garden in the preceding verses he also vowed to protect his disobedient creations. Genesis 3:15 ‘And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

God vowed to make a way of salvation through a savior that would destroy the power of Satan and sin, but he did not necessarily promise “to protect his disobedient creations.” I grant that God does protect His creation often times, but that is not expressly what this Scripture verse is saying.

You continue: “In other words, God made Satan our ENEMY.” God made Satan our enemy? I think Satan became the enemy of man the moment in came into the mind of Satan to tempt man to disobey and sin against God. God did not need to make Satan our enemy. Satan was mans enemy because man belonged to God and Satan was already the enemy of God.

Again I quote you, “Satan can ‘bruise our heel’ or lead us to sin, but we can ‘bruise his head,’ or in other words, Christ allows us to crush sin.’

You have horridly misunderstood the point of this Scripture. The “seed” that belongs to the woman is a direct reference to Christ Himself, who was crucified for sin. But as the Scripture testifies, as does my soul, Christ rose again on the third day. And when Christ rose from the dead He destroyed the power of Satan and sin (crushed the head of the serpent). We cannot crush Satan, only the shed blood of Christ could do that. Christ does not allow us to crush sin, rather through faith in Him, Christ becomes our righteousness for us freeing us from our sin.

You go on to say “Only after he proclaimed this enmity between us and satan, only after he proclaimed his protection over man, did he turn to Adam and Eve and in essence said, ‘Don’t think you’re getting off scott free either.’”

God addressed judgement upon Satan for what he had done before he addressed mankind and the judgement upon sin that He would bring against man as well as all creation, so what?

You go on to say “So, what happens next is a kind of spiritual death. When once they were always in the presence of God they were now out in the world. Where once they had everything they needed provided to them, they were now forced to work for it.”

Yes, this was among the things that God gave as temporal judgements for sin. Of course the “spiritual death” is more than a temporal problem but an eternal problem. One that can only be fixed by the atoning death of Christ.

You continue “Why do you think Adam made the choice to eat the fruit? Genesis is silent on this count but place yourself in his shoes. We know from Scripture that he was not deceived but that he made a CHOICE! (1 Timothy 2:14) Why would he choose to disobey God? Genesis 2:24 provides the answer. He was also commanded to stay with Eve! He had to make a choice to disobey God one way or another and he made the right choice.”

There are so many things wrong with this I hardly know where to start. Why did Adam choose to eat the fruit? Hard to say, perhaps he was unaware of what fruit it was. I don’t really know and I choose not to make guesses about what Scripture doesn’t reveal. Yes, 1 Timothy does tell us that it was the woman who was deceived, and not Adam. But you assume much about what happened that we know nothing of. Did Adam choose to eat the fruit to “stay” with his wife. As if Adam and Eve knew that since Eve had eaten the fruit that she would be kicked out of the garden so Adam decided to eat it also so that he could “stay” with his wife. Where do you get all of this extra information? Adam could have stayed with his wife after she ate the fruit and waited to see what God would do, without him choosing to disobey the Lord. You make so many assumptions here that it is truly foolish to turn your assumptions into assertions. Choosing to disobey a direct commandment of God is never “the right choice.”

You continue, “Indeed God didn’t abandon Adam once Adam was cast out of the garden if God continued to speak with Adam’s children (Genesis 4:9-15.)” I never said He did, but Man was no longer able to be in His direct presence because of sin. When was the last time you or anyone took a moonlight walk with the Lord?

Further you say, “And this evil son took the relationship casually enough that he thought he could hide his sins from the Lord doesn’t it follow that man (including Adam) still enjoyed a personal relationship with God up to this point. Wouldn’t you be a little intimidated if God came asking you where your brother was? Indeed we should honor Adam and Eve, for once having made a bad decision, they corrected their path and God accepted their repentance. He promised them salvation and the power to overcome satan before they even took one step out of the garden.”

I do not deny that God was still active in the lives of His creatures. It is obvious that Scripture does reveal that God communicated with them. But let me ask you, if things are still A-OK between man and God, and this personal relationship wasn’t terribly damaged by sin, why were they making sacrifices to God? (Genesis 4:3-4) Sacrifices for what? Clearly they were making offering for their sin. The old testament is rich with this practice of offering sacrifices to the Lord for the sin on the people. Clearly things have changed in the world of Adam and Eve. Why? Because of sin and the effects it has had on everything and everyone. And of course we see that Cain murders his brother because he is sinfully angry at his brother.

Would I be intimidated if God asked me something? Yes. But who in Scripture isn’t intimidated the first time God approaches them? Isaiah and Moses seem a bit intimidated in their first encounters with God, but after that they seem to hear from God without such fear as they become His mouthpiece.

I don’t necessarily disagree that Adam and Eve were repentant and that God accepted their repentance, although Scripture does not say for sure whether God forgave them or not for their trespasses. However we do see that He did continue to be involved to some extent in their lives, though not like before the fall. And God promised that the seed of the woman would overcome Satan, but he did not promise that mankind would overcome Satan. The only chance anyone has for overcoming Satan is the finished work of Christ applied to our lives by God’s grace.

Now you turn your attention to “the fallen state of mankind.” As this response is getting dreadfully long, I am going to try and respond only to points that I find relevant. The readers may review what I may skip over if they like, but I will deal with points where I hold serious contention with you.

You say “Resurrection is a free gift to all of Adam’s children. Romans 5:14-21 talks about the two kinds of salvation that come through Christ. In verse 16, talking of offenses, the gift is applied to MANY but not ALL. In verse 18 “Therefore as by the offense of one judgement (DEATH) came upon ALL men (Even Christ) to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification OF LIFE. (Resurrection)”

Honestly, I am a bit confused as to what point you are trying to make here. Frankly it sounds like you are a universalist here. Please do correct me if I’m wrong. But it seems to me that you are arguing that because of sin we all die physically, but because of what Christ has done, that EVERY PERSON in the whole world will be resurrected to eternal life? That’s what it sounds like you are saying to me. If so, I rebuke you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you mean something else, I apologize, please do clarify.

What is this passage clearly teaching? Well it’s teaching that as a result of the fall of mankind, everyone is now is a sinner in need of salvation. Romans 5:12 says, “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, (by the way this blows your whole argument that Adam’s disobedience in the garden wasn’t sin) and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.” So all men have sinned, Romans 3:23 of course has said that already. Verses 15-17 in Romans 5 tell us clearly that though all have come under sin, not all are freed from that sin. Verse 17 says “If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” Does everyone receive eternal life? Not hardly, Jesus talks of the broad and easy road that leads to destruction that many are upon, and narrow and hard the road to life that few find.

I will agree that Scripture teaches the resurrection of all people, but some are raised to life and others to eternal punishment. I hope I have misunderstood what you meant here, but if you are saying what it sound like you are saying, you need to read the Scriptures more carefully, and don’t force your own opinions upon them.

And now to your spiel about children. You say that “Children do have inherently human traits. But they have also inherited a divine nature.”

What do you mean by “human traits?” Children have inherited a sinful nature. As Romans 5:12 tells us is passed on to each of us. And they have a “divine nature?” I agree that man is made in the image of God, but we are far from divine in nature.

You continue, “Remember God made Satan our enemy from the beginning, he did NOT say to Adam, ‘You and your children are my enemy, doomed to fall in with Satan and you’ll have to prove yourself before you will be allowed back.’ By nature Satan is our enemy.”

God did not make Satan our enemy, I find this an odd assertion that you keep coming back to. Satan made himself an enemy of God and man. And no God did not say that to Adam, nor would God tell anyone that they have to “prove” themselves before they can get back in His good graces. Nor do I proclaim this. Indeed as I have said in this very post, man is incapable of pleasing God on his own. I think you are again wanting to assert that there isn’t a real serious problem between man and God, just man and Satan. You take the effects of sin on the relationship of man and God to lightly.

You continue, “Likewise in your example of the two year old that is selfish how do we hold that child accountable? With instruction. If an adult took something from his neighbor how do we hold him accountable? With punishment. He is old enough that he has received enough instruction to be held accountable.”

My only point with my example of the young child was to show that children are naturally sinful because of the inherited effects of sin passed down generation to generation through the fall of Adam. I wasn’t asking for disciplinary instructions. But now you are about to make a case for the age of accountability, aren’t you?

You say, “So at what point does a man begin to be accountable for his actions then?

Peter hints at the answer in 1 Peter 3:18-21.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, EIGHT souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure (or number -8) whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

He has even further explained that it is not as though we “put away the flesh” at eight, when a child should be baptized, but that by that point we should have enough knowledge to be able to have a ‘good conscience toward God.’”

Oh my goodness friend. I just can’t even begin to figure you out on this one. Why do you insist on making this passage refer to age of accountability? The passage implies nothing of the sort. Nor does the fact that Scripture mentions that there were only 8 people saved by the ark tell us that it is the age of 8 when children should be baptized or accountable for sin! I do not even believe that children should be baptized unless they have made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. I disagree with my brothers in the Episcopal and Lutheran churches (and others) who practice such things as baptizing children and infants. But I don’t know of anyone but you who uses this passage to justify baptizing children at 8 years of age! Nor anyone who uses this passage for age of accountability. I’ve often heard the argument from Church of Christ, and Roman Catholics that try and use this as a passage for baptismal regeneration which I would also refute, but I admit, this doctrine you espouse is a new one for me. But I see no warrant for it.

When does a person come accountable to God for their sins? I don’t think Scripture gives us such a clear cut answer. But Children are born in the flesh and sinners by nature. If children are saved when they die in infancy or at least very young (which I believe they are) it is by God’s electing them to eternal life and they are saved by the merit of Jesus Christ. But when one knows they are sinning against God or not may be different for different people. I refuse to assign an arbitrary age to the discussion.

And you finish, “A good conscience that allows us to CHOOSE Christ. Christ beckons “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Matt. 11:28. He is an impartial judge. He knows all men’s hearts, as well as our actions. And if we accept Him and obey Him and obey his commandments, he will send the comforter. (John 14:15-18) That’s His promise. He will come to us AFTER we have shown our faith and come unto Him.

So what happens to those who die before they are accountable? A perfect God can make that judgement.”

We have gone through all this range of all over the map statements that I must say have been very odd and rather confusing at times, and still at the end of it all I say to you, so what? What about Romans 1,2 and 3? What about the clear teaching of Scripture that “no one seeks for God?” “No one is righteous” and “No one does good.” What about these things? You keep saying CHOOSE in big capital letters as if you are theologically smacking me down with the word choose. But I tell you again, Scripture teaches that due to sin, we cannot CHOOSE! We don’t want to CHOOSE! We love our sin and we invent new ways of sinning, we do not desire God and therefore if God leaves us alone, we will never CHOOSE God!

Man is totally depraved, made in God’s image, but marred by sin! We are a hopeless wreck, and we cannot do anything about it. Next time you respond, respond to the issue at hand, answer me this. What do you do with Romans 3:10-12? Scripture clearly teaches the dire circumstances that man is in because of sin, Romans 1:18-32 shows how much sin we do and how much we love doing it. We will not choose God! So rather than trying to make a false distinction between disobedience towards God and sinning against God, just admit that Scripture clearly teaches that sin has put mankind in bad spot, and that we are helpless to do anything about it. For when man can finally admit that there is nothing he can do to save himself, then God is as close to that person as He has ever been.

We cannot CHOOSE God, God must CHOOSE us.

I hope you can bring some clarification to what you were trying to say on a number of points you made.

IN HIM -Jacob

Papa J said...

Risen Soul,

I do not attempt to hide my background. You certainly could learn all you need to know by reading my profile. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are more commonly referred to as Mormons.

I hope that you can see what we have in common in Christ and not be intimidated by what has quickly become obvious to me is a very different set of beliefs.

So that you may clearly understand where I come from theologically I offer to you the Articles of Faith of my religion.

Now, in the name of brevity, I will endeavor to respond to your posting to the best of my abilities. Please forgive me if I do not so clearly explain myself.

I agree that Adam should have obeyed God's word. I agree that it was a transgression.

We shall have to disagree on the result. Indeed we are reading the same scriptures, but we are having different understanding.

One thing we clearly agree on is that there are two deaths. The spiritual and the physical. God said, "In the day that you partake of the fruit you shall surely die." Gen. 2:17. And on that day they did die, spiritually. They were cast out of the presence of God. We agree on this, and I must admit your response is the first time I have ever been rebuked in the name of Jesus Christ. So, please, let there be no doubt. You don't need to rebuke me. We agree on this point.

On Romans 3. Yes we are prone to sin. God gave us desires and appetites so that we can be tested. But more importantly he did give us divine nature.
"6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7.Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crowned him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all thing put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste deat for every man." Hebrews 2:6-9 Note also that this is one of my favorite Psalms 8:3-5.

Man, ALL mankind, is just a little lower than the angels. We are filled with divine nature. But Satan, the great perverter, takes every gift that God gives and does his best to make what is good, be used for bad.

We can agree to disagree on an age of accountability. I am glad to learn that you believe in the innocence of children.

God is motivated over all to bring us back to Him. I know that He wants us all to return to His presence. God loves us, and so He sent Jesus to save us. He requires us to take action to be saved.
I know that He is real and I marvel that a being as mighty as He has any regard for a person as flawed as I am.

I hope that we can continue to amicably talk of Christ.

For the sake of simplicity, I would recommend that we only try one point at a time going forward.

risen_soul said...

Papa J,

I wasn’t by any means accusing you of hiding your background. I was just saying that everyone can see from my site where I am coming from, and I don’t always have the same liberty of knowing where those who comment here are coming from. I didn’t think of checking your profile.
I had a notion that you might be L.D.S. But I really wasn’t sure and didn’t want to assume.

Just to be up front and honest, though I hope we can have some good dialogue that is friendly, I want you to know that I consider The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a cult. I’m sure that probably sounds offensive to you, and I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I believe the teachings of your religion are not that of Christ and His apostles. I have told my friend Gregory, who pops up here now and again, who is a Roman Catholic, that my feeling about the Roman Catholic Church are much the same. Though I would readily admit that I would have far more in common with a Roman Catholic than a Latter Day Saint.

I only say this so as to not place any false pretenses upon future dialogue. I believe there is only one true gospel that saves. I believe man is saved by God’s grace through faith, not by works. (Eph. 2:8-9)

Other serious divisions that you and I have would revolve around the person of Jesus Christ, the Father and the Spirit. I believe in one God and one God only, existing in three persons. Jesus Christ is God, always was God and always will be God, and He is of the same essence as the Father and the Spirit, and the same applies all the way around. There is of course numerous other issues, that we need not discuss at this moment. I simply point out these few things because I believe that the L.D.S. present another gospel which Paul condemns in Galatians 1, and they worship a different God than the God presented in Scripture.

So as far as seeing what we have in common in Christ, the honest truth is we have very little in common. I am however not intimidated to talk with you, and I can enjoy having friendly discussion.

Thank you for the link to the “Articles of Faith” of the L.D.S. church. I have briefly skimmed them in the past, but it wouldn’t hurt to take a closer look. I certainly am no expert on L.D.S. theology, nor do I pretend to be. So it will be a helpful reference. I do own a copy of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C, But I have not studied them extensively.

We certainly disagree about the affects of the fall, and I suppose we can let the readers decide for themselves what indeed Scripture is teaching. I cannot understand, however, how you can look at Romans chapter 1 and 3 and come away saying we are merely “prone to sin” rather than enslaved to it, but I don’t know what else I can say that I haven’t already said in regard to this.

As far as rebuking you in the name of Christ, I did so only if you were holding to universalism, or that everyone will be saved. We may very well agree that there are two deaths, but what I wanted to know whether you believed that everyone would be saved regardless? That was the matter I was addressing.

On Romans 3, You say that “we are prone to sin.” Why are we prone to sin? You sound as though God made people prone to sin when you say that “God gave us desires and appetites so that we can be tested.” I of course have to refute that and say that God did not create man with a nature that was prone to sin, capable yes, but not drawn as we now are. Satan had to directly entice Eve to sin and then Adam it would seem in turn was in some way enticed, but they were not made prone to sin. It is instead because of sin entering the world that we have become prone to sin, because we are born into sin as I have already shown Scripture to teach in previous responses to you.

As far as divine natures go, you quoted Hebrews 2:6-9, and said about it “ALL mankind, is just a little lower than the angels. We are filled with a divine nature.” Again, I would say that we have here a difference of interpretation. This passage does not teach that all people are made “a little lower than the angels” but Christ is whom is being talked about here who humbled Himself to become man. Your own translation you have given says in verse 7 “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels.” not all mankind. God become flesh is what this passage refers to, and it does not refer to any divine nature that we as humans have. Again I would say that people are special as they are created in the image of God, but I think that to be quite different than what you are pointing to. I agree that Satan does try and pervert God’s good gifts, and use them for his agenda, but I don’t agree with your point about humans having a “divine nature.”

I am fine also with “agreeing to disagree” about the age of accountability, but I would urge you nonetheless, to rethink your hermeneutics on the 1 Peter passage, because you have to read a lot into that passage that just isn’t there to make that talk about the age of accountability.

In closing, though I agree insofar as to say that God has done a great work through Christ making salvation possible for those whom He calls, and He is in the business of justifying people unto salvation this day, it is not His will to save everyone. I believe nothing hinders God’s ultimate will and if He willed to save everyone than everyone would be saved. But that is not the case, and indeed God even hardens the heart of men such as Pharaoh and uses Judas to betray Christ, all according to His will. God is first about His own glory, and saving sinners as well as condemning them all play a part in bringing glory to God.

I too hope we can continue to talk in a friendly manner, and I agree that simplicity in discussion is good, one point at a time will be fine with me.

-Jacob

Papa J said...

Jacob,

My name is Patric by the way, I go by Pat.

Thank you for respecting my beliefs. As a sign of my respect for yours I will endeavor to only speak through the 66 cannonical scriptures you adhear to.

First, a quick answer, on which I believe you and I agree. I am not a universalist. Not every man shall be saved to life eternal and overcome the second death.

Next, I don't think that I am misinterpreting the verses in Hebrew 2:6-9. They are actually a quote out of Psalms 8. The psalmest first marvels at the divine nature god has given us and the glories and honor he gives unto us right down to being governors over all of nature. These he/him/his are not captialized and rightly so. I still say he has given us a divine nature.

Romans 8:16-17 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God: And if chilren, then heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

The divine nature that god has given each of us does not however reside in the flesh but in our spirit. And as every man posesses a spirit, he posesses a divine gift of God.

The desires of the flesh then wage a war with the desires of the spirit. Through the course of a man's life one or the other will become stronger. As seekers of Christ we strive to overthrow the body with the aid of Christ.

In His name,

SparcDude said...

I have taking an interest in these dissertations by this author and they are all very well though out comments.
I my self excepted the saving grace of God in 1973 by asking Jesus Christ into my heart and by doing so I now have a place with Him in heaven. I was born and raised a Catholic and was a very devout Catholic. I wanted even to study become a priest. But after attending a summer school / workshop for the purpose of being introduced into the study of the priesthood I found out that I was not exceptable because I was slightly handicapped. Needless to say, my view of a loving God went down hill and I found myself on the wide road of destruction.
After being saved I could not put down the Bible. I read it and read it especially the Gospels, and later on the Old Testament.
Ok, enough about me. My comment to this particular part is, in all of my studies of God's Worn in the Bible is that God requires, no demands to be worshiped.
which is stated in the 1st commandment "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exd 20:1&2. God created Staten as the most beautiful of all Angles, "...O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" Ish 14:12 but Satan made himself out to be greater than God and by doing that God cast him out of heaven. Ish 14: 13-15
In Genesis, God created man in His own image. "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;..." Gen 1:26a Now we all know that Satan is a deceiver and is jealous, probably because God created man in His own image, and therefor is going to do his best in keeping man from worshiping God. There in lies the "original sin" mankind has taken their eyes off of God and has turned inwardly and made gods for himself. In the Catholic church, Jesus has been replaced by the priest so that man's sins can be forgiven by indulgences (works). In the Mormon church Jesus has been replaced by Joseph Smith and man's sins are forgiven by works. In the Muslim religion, Jesus is replaced by Mohammad and man's sins are again, forgiven by works. The same is true with the Hindu and Budah religions. The same is also true for all of the "other" religions that give allegiance to man instead of God. God sent Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross for for man's sins and God raised Him up three days later so that if man would except fact that God forgave man's sins through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus, man would be made righteous in the sight of God and therefore have a place in heaven.

risen_soul said...

hey sparcdude,

thanks for your thoughts and your testimony. I agree with you that true Christianity is the only religion where it is taught that God does not require works for salvation.

Salvation is dependent upon God's grace which is received through faith, and even that faith is the gift of God.

Welcome to the blog, I hope to hear from you again.

risen_soul said...

Hello Pat,

sorry for the delay, this is the first time I've had a chance to sit at a computer since last Tuesday I think.

It is my desire to be respectful to you and to others who hold various views and religions. It is also my desire to respectfully warn other of the dangers of what they are believing, and Pat my friend, I am concerned for you and your salvation. I do not believe that the L.D.S. church teaches the true gospel. My prayer for you as we continue is that God may ope your heart and mind to the Scriptures.

I am glad to hear that you are not a universalist.

As far as Hebrews 2:6-9, I will say this, there are disagreements between scholars whether this passage is messianic or not. And I understand what you are trying to say as far as this relating to mankind rather than Christ. That is a conversation for another time.

Regardless however, I still do not see that this passage (Even if it were to refer to mankind) nor the passage in Psalm 8 from which it comes teaches that man has a "divine" nature. Even if God bestows honor upon man, it does not make man divine, but merely blessed. But maybe I should ask for clarification on what you mean by divine.

I believe that man is created as an eternal being, that is our souls will never cease, but we are not divine as God is divine.

I know L.D.S. theology believes that man can become a god, and that God was once man, but I reject that and so does Scripture.

I hope you know that capitalization of the text is merely a translation thing. The original manuscripts of Greek and Hebrew did not use capitals as we do. Some translations never capitalize Him or He when refering to God.

You use Romans 8:16-17 incorrectly and of this I have no doubt. This passage is speaking to Christians about assurance of Salvation. When we trust Christ for salvation, we receive the Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13) and that Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are children of God. But unbelievers do not have the Spirit of God. We are not all children of God, indeed Jesus says to the Pharisees,

"42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:42-44)

So clearly we are not all children of God.

I think you confuse passages that specifically speak about Christians with all of mankind. Desires of the flesh waring against the desires of the Spirit is again speaking about those who have the Spirit of God, and still struggle against their old nature. It does not refer to all mankind.

Again, the whole problem here is your understanding of sin and the fall. No one seeks for God. God must seek us. We are not prone to look for God, we are prone to look away from God.

Papa J said...

Sorry for the hiatus, I was out of town.

For sparcdude: Mormons don't worship Joseph Smith any more than any christian worships Moses. He was a prophet. He did not and never could claim a post of worship and we don't give him one. Perhaps a discussion on prophets would be interesting. I'll leave that to Jacob as this is his blog.

Jacob,

You state that scripture rejects an LDS doctrine, that man has the potential to become like god. Please explain then, first, where does scripture reject this truth, and second, what then would be our final state?

Man's divinity

Yes, we all are carnal in nature. We are in the flesh and the flesh can govern our desires but we have agency and control over the natural man.

Galatians 5:16-17 "This I say then, Walk in the spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would"

This scripture speaks very poetically about the dual nature of man. Yes, we do have a battle to fight against the corruption of the flesh, but we have all been given a spirit to do battle with. The spirit is the core of our divine nature. We spend this lifetime training it to listen to whichever master we choose, God or Satan.

To make his point Paul continued in his letter to the Galatians 6:7-10
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (What?! a reward for good works?) 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the househod of faith.

We do have one gift in the flesh that is divine of itself but is easily corrupted by men. Procreation. In no other gift has the lord trusted us so much as in our ability to create new bodies for divine beings. It was the first commandment given to Adam and Eve upon their expulsion from the garden, to multiply and replenish the earth.

Therefore, it is the one gift that Satan will try the hardest to corrupt.

Your friend in Christ,

Pat

risen_soul said...

Specifically what I said was:

"I know L.D.S. theology believes that man can become a god, and that God was once man, but I reject that and so does Scripture."

You said that man has the potential to become "like god." Depending on what is meant by that, I agree that man can become more like God. I think that is the point of sanctification and inevitibally glorification when we are made to be sinless. But becoming more like God is very different than becoming a god or just like God.

If I were the same as God in every way that would make me... well, God. But there is only one God. Eternity Past, Present, and Future, there is but one God. (1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Corinthians 8:6; etc.) There are many passages that state there is but one God.

Deuteronomy 4:35 says "To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him."

So Scripture clearly reject the notion that anyone can truly be just like God and become a God. There is only one God.

"What would be our final state?" you ask. As I have stated, we are eternal beings, though created, we do have a beginning but our spirit will have no end. Our final state will either be glorification, that is to be made sinless and as God intended back in proper fellowship to the one God enjoying Him for all eternity. Or we will be cast into hell to suffer for all eternity. That simple.

You once again use Galatians and passages like it improperly. The Spirit with which we are to walk in and wages war against the flesh is not our human Spirit but the Spirit of God that dwells in the believer. (Eph. 1:13-14)

The natural man cannot please God, we must receive the Spirit of God and then allow Him control in our lives so that we may please God.

It is a terrible error to believe that every man has a Spirit that wages war with the flesh, our human Spirit is more than willing to go along with the flesh because it has been corrupted by sin.

It is the Spirit of God that indwells the believer that enables a Christian to war against the flesh. You time and again confuse passages that speak to Christians as passages that apply to everyone.

And you have still not answerd Romans 3:10-12 that says "No one seeks for God" and "No one does good." Apart from God entering a persons life, we cannot overcome sin. Nor do we want to.

I agree that Christians are rewarded for good deeds, however no one does Good, nor can, except by becoming born again by God's sovereign will.

Again, this is the whole point of this post. We are depraved and hopeless, helpless, utterly lost in sin. We can do nothing about it.

Papa J said...

Jacob,

First, on Roman's 3:10-12.

Paul is quoting the Psalmist from Psalms chapters 14 and 53. How is it that no one does good? It can't be literal as the scriptures are repleat with appeals to do good. What then does this mean? The answer comes from verse 12 in the word "unprofitable".

Christ explains this concept in Luke 17:7-10

7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say We are UNPROFITABLE servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Paul is not speaking about our corrupt nature but rather that there is nothing we can do that would more than make up for our sins. Nothing. Again, put his discourse into context. He is teaching the Jews, who are driven by Mosaic law, that they can not make themselves good by simply going through the motions. (That's about as silly as the notion that man should join every religion on earth, just in case.)

So now, back to Galatians:

You say that the spirit Paul speaks of is not ours but only THE spirit. So what then is The Spirit fighting with? Not with our spirit, but with our flesh. What does the spirit speak to? How do we hear it? It is a still small voice. We feel it in our spirit. We feel the growing of the fruits of the spirit in our chest as our spirit recognizes the voice of it's true master. Does repentance clean our body? Our flesh? Repentance cleans our soul. The part of us that is divine and holy. We are the divine children of God. ALL men who have ever been and ever will be born on this earth are his children. He wants ALL men to return to him.

How do we become his elect then?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME." John 10:27

When we feel the fruit of the spirit, we are duty bound to obey. If we do not obey we are not his sheep. Not his elect.

Election is not a random process we are predestined to. It is a blessing given to God's faithful followers.

In Jesus' name,

risen_soul said...

First thing, what verse 12 are you talking about? I don't see verse 12 in Romans 3 saying unprofitable, and both psalms you mantioned have no verse 12?

I know you use the KJV, which as I look at it now uses the word unprofitable instead of a more literal interpretation which is used by the ESV and other translations which translates the word worthless. Nonetheless, even if we use the KJV here, this does not well make your point.

You say we must not take the Scripture litterally? Why? Why not take Scripture for exactly what it says? Why make this figurative and parabolic? The only reason to do so is because if you tale the Bible for what it means it smacks LDS theology in the face. You must make it none literal for you to continue to hold onto your beliefs.

But the Scripture says what it says, and God held the Pharisees accountable all the time to what the Scripture said, and I now hold you. Paul is most certainly talking about our corrupt nature. Anyone who came to this text without pressupositions that do not allow for a literal interpretation would see that Paul is saying "MAN IS BAD."

I will agree with you that the context of this passage is that Paul is telling the Jews that they cannot justify themselves by works of the law. And then He tells them here in Romans 3, why. Because they can do nothing good in God's sight. They do not seek for God, they do not know Him, nor want to. Simply obeying laws does not change the inward condition of their soul. And they can't change it. God must intervene and save man, because man cannot save himself.

On Galatians, it is clearly the Spirit (who is God) that enables man to please God. We must fight our old nature (the flesh) by submitting to God's Spirit and letting Him take control.

My point is, that this passage is referring to those who are born again as Ephesians 1:13-14 speaks about. That is not everyone, but only those who have received the Spirit of God by placing their faith in Christ.

You say that "ALL men who have ever been and ever will be born on this earth are his children," referring to God's children I believe is what you mean. But again, you can only believe this if you reject Scripture meaning what it says. Jesus as I have already pointed out says to some men that they are of "their father the devil."

So not all men are the children of God. Creatures of God, yes. But only those who receive adoption through faith in the Son Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit are sons of God.

Galatians 3:26

"for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."

Your view of election is counter to the words definition. God does not elect those that choose Him, that is nonesensical. It's like saying "I think I'll marry my wife because she has married me."

Look at Romans 8:29-30.

"29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

I did a word study on foreknew that you should check out again on my second post of this series.

Clearly God predestines people to salvation before they are justified. He does not justify them and then call them to be saved. The order of God's salvific work is clearly laid out. God is in control of Salvation, not man.

Papa J said...

Jacob,

It is clear we disagree on the interpretations of these scriptures.

I have nothing more to add to this discussion, as I think we have both repeated ourselves at least twice.

Nothing you say "smacks against LDS doctrine" anymore than what I have shared with you smacks you and your doctrine.

What I conclude is that we both love the Lord. We both have faith in Him. We disagree on how salvation is accomplished.

One last note. Claiming that another person's religion is defined as a cult is petty. I ask that before you accept this definition for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you satisfy yourself that it is an accurate definition.

risen_soul said...

Well Pat, I understand if you wish to drop the discussion, because I agree that we will not convince each other unless God does a work in my heart or yours to show the truth.

I cannot help but label the LDS church as a cult however, because they (you) hold views about God and salvation that are heretical and down right dangerous. I do not believe the LDS teaching will lead people to Heaven but rather to Hell, and that is why I take the time to discuss thes issues with you and others and that is why I pray for you and others. I'm concerned for your salvation.

I realize you think my concern for yor salvation is unwarranted and you may find it offensive because that of course means that I count you as an unbeliever. But know that I only say this out of love and concern for you and your family.

The gate is narrow and the path is difficult that leads to eternal life. Take care friend.

SparcDude said...

papa j,

I stated that the Mormon church "replaced" Jesus Christ with Joseph Smith. You brought to discussion the idea of the worship of Joseph Smith.
I quote:
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."

--Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289

Where as to be saved a person needs to accept the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

--Jesus (John 14:6)

As I have said before, I was a Catholic, trained from my youth by Nuns, I was an alter boy in the days when Latin was spoken during the Mass. I was fascinated with the priestly ritualism and wanted to become a priest myself.
While I attended college in Denver, where I was doming there were three guys who were Mormons and me and two other guys that were Catholics. I remember one night we got into a discussion of the differences of our religions which went on till 2am. It made an impression on me which I still remember to this day, 38 years later.
I even purchased the book of Mormon and read it.
After I had excepted Jesus Christ as my savior I realized that during that discussion we had all missed the point of Jesus coming into this world and dieing for our sins and being raised up from the dead by God so that if we accept this saving grace God has given us, we will have a new eternal life with God in Heaven when we die . Other wise we will be eternally condemned in hell.
In reading your comments it seems that you have studied the Bible, God's Word, and know what it has to say.
I pray that you are not being "deceived by your religion" as I was by mine.